Homegrown Youth Ministry: Why Sustainable Ministry Beats Hype with Jonathan Kornelsen

Want a youth ministry that outlasts the hype cycle and survives staff turnover without losing momentum? Oh for sure, eh! 

This week's conversation with Canadian veteran youth pastor Jonathan Kornelsen dives into the shift from big events to spiritual formation, equipping teens to lead, and building a ministry that actually gets healthier over time.

Jonathan outlines nine core convictions from his Youth Ministry Blueprint—clarifying mission and priorities before any program, crafting a discipleship strategy with measurable wins, protecting leader health as the true foundation, building a volunteer pipeline with strong onboarding, and designing gatherings that are excellent without becoming the point. We connect those principles to biblical models: Nehemiah’s prayerful planning, Moses’ detailed tabernacle instructions, Paul’s leadership structures, and Jesus’ focus on disciples over crowds. The result is a practical path for ministries of any size to create belonging, sustain growth, and hand off a stronger system to the next leader.

The takeaway is direct: stop chasing attendance as the primary metric and measure formation, ownership, and calling.

Jon shares a nine-conviction blueprint for building healthy, transferable structures that outlast any one leader.

• defining mission, vision, and priorities before programming
• building a discipleship strategy with clear wins
• prioritising leader health as the true foundation
• equipping students to lead worship, teach, and serve
• onboarding and aligning volunteers with clear expectations
• designing programs that form disciples, not consumers
• creating belonging through small groups and culture
• assessing health with simple tools beyond headcount
• applying biblical models for structured, durable ministry
• resourcing and connecting with Youth Ministry Blueprint

Order Youth Ministry Blueprint on Amazon and follow us on Jonathan at Youth Ministry Blueprint
https://www.youthministryblueprint.com/

Chapters

• 0:00 Cold Weather Banter And Introductions
• 2:27 Jonathan’s Story And Roots In Chilliwack
• 5:27 Two Decades Of Youth Ministry Shifts
• 8:10 From Events To Equipping Students
• 10:39 Multi‑Site Realities And Calling Students Up
• 13:05 Pathways To Ministry And Homegrown Staff
• 15:05 Blueprint: Nine Core Convictions Overview
• 20:05 Discipleship Over Crowds And Healthy Metrics
• 23:10 Biblical Models For Building Well
• 26:00 Assessment, Longevity, And Sustainable Structure
• 28:35 Reading, Resources, And How To Connect

Transcript

SPEAKER_02: 0:06

Hey everybody, welcome back to another episode of the Youth Ministry Booster Podcast. Hanging out. You know, it gets cold sometimes. And I'm really thankful that we have a small heater here in the garage. But I'm even more thankful when I know that I'm sure the cold I'm facing is no near the sub-zero temperatures that our guest is facing. Jonathan uh Cornellton, all the way from Canada, from the beach. From Canada. My friend, how is the British Columbia? How are you today, my friend? We were talking about it today. Jonathan, how are you, my buddy?

SPEAKER_00: 0:36

You know, I'm living the life. It has been sunny the last few days. We're not like the cold temperatures like the prairies, so we're just like rainy and drizzly all the time. So we had we had sun yesterday. We got cloud and wet. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 0:48

Okay. We we're almost we're almost uh we're we're we're riding around that zero zero degrees Celsius mark uh here in Oklahoma today. So we we we've had our Thanksgiving turkey, we've had our fill, and now the freeze has set in. And so I hope everybody turned their sprinklers off and covered their faucets because the cold is here.

SPEAKER_00: 1:07

But when you guys get snow, you guys cancel stuff, right? Like even just a little bit of snow?

SPEAKER_02: 1:11

We almost canceled the day. There was enough there was enough precipitation coming down and then immediately melting on the roads that my 10-year-old son was like, Well, they're gonna cancel school, right? And I'm like, no, Bubba, they're not gonna cancel school just because we saw snow. It's like we're groundhogs down here. If we see snow, we tuck tail, and we yeah, we can't. Yeah, y'all never cancel, I'm sure. You're like, hey, man, only only when we get ice.

SPEAKER_00: 1:32

When we get the like the ice. When we get the ice, then then they cancel it. But the snow, they're they pretty keep keep school going.

SPEAKER_02: 1:39

Yeah, it's good. Well, that that typically is our issue, is it it comes down, it freezes overnight, and the next morning our one snow plow for a city of a million people just can't keep up. I mean, what were they gonna do? What were they gonna do?

SPEAKER_00: 1:51

Hundred percent.

SPEAKER_02: 1:52

So well, Jonathan, uh well, happy, happy American Thanksgiving to you if if you celebrate with pumpkin pie or or stuffing or dressing or not, uh, or a bowl of poutine for the celebration of the CFL championships? That's right. Yeah, right. Oh man. Would you help our help our guest knows a little bit? Uh I love our connection. We got to talk about Peter's milkshakes for those that know. Calgary Connection. For the Calgaryans. Come on, come on. So okay, so how how did you end up in Canada, born-raised, transplant otherwise, and then how did you end up on the west side, best side of Canada?

SPEAKER_00: 2:31

Yeah, yeah. So I was actually born uh in Edmonton, Alberta, uh, and I got out of there really quickly and I got put into foster care. So uh there's a good reason to leave Edmonton. Uh and uh and I got adopted uh when I was four and a half, and I ended up in Chilliwack, and that's where I grew up and uh where I was raised and where my family is, and uh I love the community that I live in. We're about an hour and a half from Vancouver. Uh, and uh there was a time where I had left and then I came back, and I was like, I was never wanting to be in Chilliwack, and then God just has a funny sense of humor that uh says, no, no, my plans are better than your plans.

SPEAKER_02: 3:10

Yes, we got roots here. I I think that's what we talked a little bit like um you it's quite a bit quite the journey, uh a little stop-off serving at your home church, because that's how God sometimes ordains it for those that speak pastorally and prophetically.

SPEAKER_00: 3:24

Yeah. I I and I I actually said no like seven times. Uh seven times I said no. And uh God just made it really clear. Uh I want you to be at our uh the church you went to as a youth kid. And so it's so cool. Like I love sitting where you know we got to preach, and I go, I remember like getting hidden face you know with a dodgeball in this room because it was a gym at the time we converted it to a youth center. And it's like, oh man, this is wild. It's just like it's it's pretty surreal. Pretty surreal. You know, to see kids get baptized in the same tank that I got baptized.

SPEAKER_02: 3:53

That's awesome. Is there any JK uh graffiti in the men's room still or any little paint over all of your old?

SPEAKER_00: 3:59

No, no. Yeah, yeah.

unknown: 4:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 4:01

Tags.

SPEAKER_00: 4:02

Our building was a dump and then we rent. So any any any evidence is long gone, which is very good.

SPEAKER_02: 4:08

Oh, that's good.

SPEAKER_00: 4:09

That's good.

SPEAKER_02: 4:09

We have we have erased the history of the Trevor Burrus, Jr.

SPEAKER_00: 4:12

That's right. You know, but it's weird. When you when you actually go back to the church that you went to, like all the elders were actually like former youth leaders. So they're like, so when you say John Cornelson, do you do you mean that John Cornelson? Because I I was the loud kind of wild kid. Uh yes, it is. And I'm way better now. So take that out of the way.

SPEAKER_02: 4:33

You have them like Clark Kented, where you put the the put the shit, you put the spectacles on and you become Clark Kent to them, and they're just like, I don't even recognize this young man.

SPEAKER_00: 4:40

Hidden identity. Yeah, 100%.

SPEAKER_02: 4:43

That's it. Yeah. He walks among us in plain sight. Absolutely. That's right. That's right. But brother, what a mystery he is. Tell me, tell me a little bit, man. Like, I mean, almost two decades worth of serving and leading in youth ministry. Twenty-two years. What are some of the big things that you've just 22? Let's celebrate 22 years. Um I mean, that's a Taylor Swift song in the making, I'm sure. 100%. But what are some of the ways in which you you've really seen that like grow and change in 22 years? I think that's something like for folks that are are relatively new, it's hard to fully appreciate how much could or has changed in 20 plus years. But what are some of the things that you've noticed as real changes over the course of that time?

SPEAKER_00: 5:27

Oh, I like I think like youth ministry model. There was a day where you could have pizza and dodge ball, and you would have a killer youth group coming out, and you could talk about Jesus for five seconds, you know, and then you move on to the next thing and you'd you have a a huge youth group. And then like that ministry model has changed. Like it's not kids, kids in Canada, or in our youth group, anyways, they're not coming because our events are fun. They're coming because they they want the word of God. Uh, they want truth in a world where um truth is uh subjective, right? And so it is it's amazing to see what God's doing in the local church in Canada. We're we're seeing kind of like this this uh uh silent revival. Uh we've got kids who are running uh Bible school clubs in their schools, and like 120 kids are coming out. Uh, we actually have some kids that are doing a a school district-wide uh worship night, and it's actually like part of the school district, which is very funny because uh our school district is very polarized uh when it comes to the left or the right uh and uh and some of the the ideologies and beliefs. Uh and so it's really cool. I mean, God's God's doing really cool things, and I look back those 22 years and I go, man, I wish I wish back then we were where we are today, because it just seems like there's so much fruit that's coming out of ministry, right? Where where you know you ran an event and it was like, hey, like a good group of kids came out, but what was the fruit that came from it?

SPEAKER_02: 6:54

Do you feel like there's a little bit of that as a theme of like some of the um maybe the the reach of the youth ministry happenings uh feels like it has reached less, and yet the fruitfulness is more. Do you feel like that's a fair evaluation or assessment of some of the youth ministry today? Because I know that for some folks they feel discouraged because it feels like 20 kids is the new 30 kids, and I'm I'm behind the attendance metrics of the old logbooks that I found from 15 years ago. And yet, if you talk to anybody that's been in it for a while, there is a hint and and and and an excitement of like, man, this seems like something fresh and new and maybe even more passionate or dare say like burgeoning revival that maybe even 10 years ago we didn't really know or experience.

SPEAKER_00: 7:43

Yeah, a thousand percent. And and again, like I I I just look at it and I go, you know, we're we're in our youth ministry, like a huge part of what we're doing is equipping, right? And so we're equipping kids to lead worship, we're equipping kids to preach, we're equipping kids to be servant leaders, right? And uh, and and I think that's just really, really cool because, you know, back in the day, I think, you know, even 22 years ago, being that youth pastor was really uh kind of like that superstar role, a little bit, if you know what I mean, right? Like it was like, oh, you're on this pedestal. And I think so much of the ministries that are really healthy right now are the ones who are saying, hey, we're actually equipping kids, we're releasing kids, we're giving them that really big safety net uh that uh that's gonna protect them, but also allows them to like experience ministry. So we're seeing more students, you know, actually step into vocational ministry than we did 20 years ago. Uh we've got more kids going to Bible college than 20 years ago. And so these are just things that we celebrate and we go, man, God, you're so good. And you know, there's there's sometimes where you just go, uh, it's hard to be a youth pastor. Like it's really hard to be a youth pastor in today's day and age with all the stuff that we have to deal with. And it's like, but you know, we're called to this in a season and a time such as this, so that we could actually equip these kids to continue the ministry.

SPEAKER_02: 8:58

That's good. What what are some of the ways that you've pivoted or adjusted or recalibrated to to be more equipping in that way? Are there things that you're doing differently now to adapt to that cultural or um uh or or cha change of the age that we're in? How how how does ministry look different for what you can plan and control?

SPEAKER_00: 9:19

Yeah, I mean, I mean, so much of of what I am doing is like we're like multi-site, so uh my my context is really dynamically challenging. Um, you know, we've we run 250 some events a year in our youth ministry across our campuses. Uh and so for me, like so much of what I have to do is that focus of like, okay, I can't be the guy. I have to, I have to find those students, I have to call those students. Like, I actually had a conversation with a kid uh who wants to go into the army, and I'm like, dude, like I just gotta I gotta have a conversation before you hit the send button. Like, I love that you're doing this, even though we're Mennonite and we're pacifists, uh, I love that you're wanting to serve. Like, I I I adore you for that. But do you think maybe God's calling you into ministry? And so I actually have to like be bold in identifying who those students may be and inviting them into uh into ministry and say, actually, I see something that God is doing in you. Can I give you an opportunity? Can I give you um you know a shot? Like I'll work with you in preparing a sermon and a talk. I know that you biblically like you got it, you understand it. Uh, you know the gospel, you can communicate that. Can I help you just do that for your peers? And so so much what we have to do is like just this intent. It's not even a change in our program. Like our program looks very similar, um, but it's about the intention and and how we're working behind the scenes.

SPEAKER_02: 10:37

Well, and I think that's one of the things that seems to be in the cultural moment is the shifting to more coaching uh of young people. Like whether that's the influence of the influencer culture or the the spiritual self-help zeitgeist that we're in, but there is a lot of folks that are even more hungry for tell me what next steps could be. Like whether it's the obsession with the gym or the obsession with growing as a person or capacity or or skill set, like there seems to be um whether it's entrepreneurial or just like an excitement of teenagers today, like tell me tell me what to do next. And I think there's a couple different ways to respond. One is to try to do that wholesale for everyone. There's a lot of folks that are trying to run some very like heavy curricular learning plan, almost like Bible seminary college kind of stuff in their youth ministry, or adapting relationally to help whether it's through yourself or through other leaders, to take this individuated, like I'm gonna help Mark, I'm gonna help Eric, I'm gonna help Stephanie in the ways in which their spiritual journey might have these next steps that they need to either be aware of or take. And so even encouraging to hear. I I do like that the idea of like creating opportunity for them, even if they don't fully understand what the opportunity might be.

SPEAKER_00: 12:01

Yeah. And I and I think I I don't know what it was like in the States, but but in Canada, there was like an assumed pathway, right? So the pathway was uh you grow up in the local church, uh, and it was assumed that Christian kids go to college after high school or they go to camp when they're teenagers, they go to college. Uh my youth ministry class was like 35 people uh for year one, right? Um our our Bible college that we have about 40 minutes away from us, I think they've got like seven kids in the youth men this year, right? Uh and so it's like that pathway is different. And so what we actually need to do as youth pastors is like raise up from within. Uh, and I I think that the healthier the the ministries are, they're the ones that are focusing on, okay, I'm walking with this kid now for six years. How do I help them discover their giftings, their potential, invite them into that and give them opportunity? And I mean, my staff that I have, we've we've hired multiple staff, they're all former youth kids, and I love it. It's the best thing in the world because we've identified those giftings, given them opportunities, seen their heart, seen their passion, see their love for Jesus, see the burden that they have for their peers, and we're like, hey, we'll give you that great environment where you can learn and grow and do really good ministry.

SPEAKER_02: 13:10

It is it is so interesting that so much of youth ministry today seems to have this like homegrown uh appeal, right? Like that most of the folks that have maybe previously shopped for youth ministers across town, across context, or you know, you know, plucked from the seminaries or Bible colleges are kind of raising their own and maybe like investing in them for seminary education on a hope of return. Uh, but it seems like there's very few folks on the waiver wire to do our fantasy football uh uh analogy for the moment. Um there seems to be more folks that are like already in the locker room that maybe just need the assignment. And I think that is something to hear you say is encouraging and confirming across multiple uh time zones for the ways in which that for folks looking for help, they may be already under the roof, they just don't have the um uh uh uh right assignment or the the challenging enough ask of what we're looking for them to do. So that's really, really powerful to hear.

SPEAKER_00: 14:14

And and I think one of the things that we're seeing in Canada, I don't know uh with the states, but a lot of our churches they're hiring a a two-year diploma. Uh they're not hiring the f like the four-year degree, they're doing the diploma. And and what we're finding is, I mean, it's that continual recycle, like uh the cycle of uh youth pastor come, youth pastor go, that's still happening um as much as it was before. And I think our some of our ministries are actually uh more unhealthy because of that, right? There's just that that cycle. And so part of part of what we have to do, especially um churches that that are structured, you know, we're multi-site, we've got four four campuses, I need lots of support, uh, is raise up and release. And and we've had some of our our staff have moved on to other roles and and they look back and they're like, we're so thankful for that that kind of in uh incubator where they were able to grow, um, really learn, you know, good ministry, good ministry uh tools and practices, uh, and now apply that in their new church, which is making their new church healthier. And so that's really cool. Like that's just uh an evidence of God's grace that that that's fun to be able to look and go, man, you know, God, you're good. Uh how you can, you know, speak through me into a kid's life and they can now do really good ministry because I'm John, right?

SPEAKER_02: 15:31

No, it's good. No, the church's cultivator. I mean, again, I think one of the things important in leadership always is to understand the metaphors in which we're operating. The church's cultivator is an important one. That if it is just the program that we have planned for students while they're here, we can fall into the event director, cruise director trap the old youth ministry book slogans and stuff. We don't want to be that, but we fall into it because we didn't have a better metaphor for what we're trying to do. Which is why my friend, I want to ask you a little bit. You've been doing a lot of research, some heavy lifting uh on some recent writing stuff that you've done uh for the blueprints for youth ministry. And I want I want you to walk us through a little bit, like in your in your experience and in your expertise in research, what are some of the things that are most fundamental and critical for youth ministers today? Again, we're closing down 2025, we're looking to a bright 2026. Um, what are some of the things that are the most uh structurally important for the ways in which we're building something? Because I do think youth ministry can suffer if it's not built well. I think we get a little too ramshackle, a little too uh quick fix, or maybe living week to week instead of considering the larger plan and structure. So uh for all the effort, energy, and research, uh, Jonathan, help us, my friend. Yeah, guide guide us, guide us in a way that you could direct our next steps as we're building and leading.

SPEAKER_00: 16:50

Yes. Well, I I so I uh as Zach said, like I wrote a book called Youth Ministry Blueprint, and um and I was I I kind of the backstory was I I went and got my masters through this amazing program uh called uh the Coalition for Youth Ministry Leadership run by Youth Worker Community in Canada. Uh and all the all the profs are like the Walt Muellers, Ginny Olson, Marv Penner. So some of these really like amazing, amazing youth ministry legends uh were my profs. And I and I I left that program with this conviction. Um I've been at my church now, you know, I'm 15 years in. Um I I know that I'm on the tail end of of my ministry. Like I know that I've got less time than I have have already had. Uh and so I w I had this conviction I gotta leave my youth ministry healthier because uh there will be a day when John Cornelson is not at Central. Um But I also had this burden, like we actually have to help the new youth pastors, the the bivocational youth pastors, uh in establishing a healthy ministry. So I kind of came up with nine core convictions that represent um the key stages of construction in a healthy youth ministry. Uh each conviction is is more than a principle, like it's this posture. Uh and and they form the the foundation, the framework, the the future of the ministry, so it doesn't just survive but thrives, especially in seasons of transition. That's really kind of what I was was really focusing on. Um, because we know that that turnaround cycle happens all the time. Uh and so the some of those steps would be like it's inevitable.

SPEAKER_02: 18:20

That's right.

SPEAKER_00: 18:20

It's inevitable, right? Like we're we're we're not the savior, right? We we are the youth pastor who's gonna come and go. We have we have a a season, and one of the one of the big hiccups. Right, we all move on. But one of the things that we often do is we talk about it being our ministry, right? This is our ministry, and it's like actually, no, this is Jesus' ministry. And so I hold that so loosely, but also so tightly because I hold it tightly because I actually get to to to to lead this into a place of of either uh you know uh thriving or or dysfunction. Um and at the same time, what I release uh is going to uh set that next person up for failure or for success. Like I I could I could set my ministry up in such a poorly way that uh that when the new guy comes, the lead pastor's gonna phone, you know, the youth ministry expert and be like, this guy left nothing. What if we what if we built our ministries in a way that actually was so full of structures? We're starting over. We're starting over. But but so many groups are doing that. They they start over. We didn't know what the policies and procedures are. We didn't know, you know, we're coming up with a new mission, vision, uh, you know, and priority statements. And so uh so these nine convictions would be this. Number one, uh, that you need to actually really define your mission, your vision, your priorities. This is your purpose, right? Uh this is the foundation. Clarity before construction, right? If you don't define your purpose, your programs will eventually define it. And everything starts with this clear understanding of why you exist and what you're building towards. Okay. Uh secondly, uh, that we actually need to build a discipleship strategy and understand. What are our big wins, right? So, I mean, I grew up in in uh Doug Field's uh purpose-driven youth ministry. He said that there's there's five core things, right? Uh worship, discipleship, evangelism, service, and community or fellowship, right? Um, I think those are still really important. Those are those are some of the metrics that we have to be looking at uh to determine if our ministry is healthy. What do I want to accomplish in worship? What do I want to accomplish in my evangelism or my discipleship, right? What do I want uh my community to look like, right? Uh because what, again, what I'm going to build is either going to be healthy or it's going to crumble when I leave, right? Um the third thing is that we actually need to strengthen the foundation. Uh, and this is really uh at the heart of it is the spiritual renewal for leaders, right? Our ministries are only as healthy as you are uh you and I are in our relationship with the Lord, right? And uh our our spiritual health never exceeds the personal health of its leader, right? Uh sorry, sorry, a ministry spiritual health will never exceed a personal uh the personal health of its leaders. Uh and so part of what what I want to do is just go like, how how are you doing just to just to help double down on friend, like that's that's a bold claim.

SPEAKER_02: 21:12

That's a bold claim for a lot of folks that are are trying to push their ministry ahead of them instead of lead or pull. And I think that's a that's a pivotal metaphor that it's like the the bar you set for what you hope to do is not uh launch shot or boomshot off of what you uh have done, but rises to the capacity that you have cultivated in your own honesty, integrity, character, and leadership. And I think for a lot of folks, they're thinking that, like, well, I'm the springboard for the ministry instead of understanding and taking to heart what that leader role might actually look like.

SPEAKER_00: 21:49

Well, and and so much of it too, right, is is like I can't lead students further than I've been myself. I I loved yesterday. Yesterday after church, I I took some of our young adults out for lunch and and we were just talking, and there's some debate going on about you know ministry models and why we do church a certain way. And one of the one of the guys, who's just a little bit of a he's a little cynical sometimes, he just goes, Hey John, I I just am so thankful for your faithfulness. I know that you love the Lord. I see it. Uh, it has inspired me to love the Lord and to ask questions and to dig deep. And I just go, man, I just kind of just sat like just so encouraged, like, okay, am I perfect? No, but am I am I really taking steps forward so that I can set that example of what a life of faithfulness and ministry looks like, right? And people notice that. People notice how we live our lives. Um, and so spiritual renewals leader or uh spiritual renewal for leaders is important, right? We need to ask questions how we're doing with our heart, soul, mind, strength, body, uh, because that's how God's created us to be. Um, the the next thing that uh that I talk about in my book is this idea of like leader onboarding and training. Uh, I think so many of our ministries uh we we struggle because we don't we never have enough help. And so we throw the leader in quickly. Uh we we don't set up clear expectations for uh what they should be doing, and then they're left going, I don't want to be here. You threw me in with grade six boys. What the heck? I I am not a babysitter, right? Um and so we actually have to do a really good job. Please eject, please. I want out. Please, can I tap out? Someone else come in, right? Uh and that's not healthy, that's not healthy for your ministry. And so to be, you know, really clear what our our culture and our pipeline is, you know, where our leaders are equipped and supported and and unified around a shared mission. Um, and and that uh like effective youth ministry actually depends on a unified team that's all polling in the same way and uh and knows what we're doing because that's how we actually multiply impact. Um in the book we talk about designing the elements of an effective youth ministry. Uh and and this would be kind of like the construction of programs and ministry environments that align with your mission. Um but those those look different for every church, and so part of what you have to do as you're building is really know your context, know your church, know know, you know, there's there's some churches that are like, okay, awana. Awana, I don't know if you guys know what awana is. It's a Canadi Canadian. Puggles Unite. Yeah, yeah. So much tape on the carpet. So much tape. Uh you know, so much.

SPEAKER_02: 24:23

Multicolored and also very specific tape. Yes.

SPEAKER_00: 24:27

Very specific. It does does not peel well. Um, and and so part of it is like how do we design our programs to not just um be a calendar that's full, but actually missional, that's forming disciples, not consumers. Um you know, we talk about in the book just how you plan for events because I think uh excellent excellence honors God and inspires people. And so, how do we do that well uh planning and executing youth events? Like I I have had so many youth nights. I remember one of my first youth nights, um, I was an intern and um my my buddy Dave, he was the youth pastor, he said, Hey John, I want you to lead a Bible study. And I'm like, Okay, I'll lead a Bible study. And uh, and about five minutes later, the Bible study was done. We had an uh an hour and 25 minutes of just hanging out because I wasn't I wasn't actually prepared. And and he came back, he's like, Hey John, dude, that was that was rough, man. Like you didn't even have snack, and so I uh I was like, hey, I got a whole bunch of uh apple cider um left over from my wedding. It's sitting beside the furnace. Maybe I should bring that and get rid of it. Well, it had turned, and luckily some leaders had found that. And so um, you know, those those things that you learned early in ministry, right? Uh, but but so much of what I I think youth pastors or youth workers, because of the complexities of youth work, like we fly by the seat of our pants. And so we're we're pulling things together last minute. You know, when we've got a game, we're scrambling to find the pool noodles because we didn't actually put those out in time, you know, and so how do we how do we do that? Um how do we make sure that our our programs are just excellent because uh they they actually reflect, you know, uh and and honor God in our excellence. And so not that our program is everything, but what we do is done well, it's thought through, it's it's been prayed over. Uh we're wise in in our building. Uh and then and then we talk about uh two other things. We talk about uh what it is to set a stage for an authentic community. Uh, you know, we we so long for students to find a place of belonging in the church. Uh how do we actually form that community? How do our small groups play a factor in that? Uh how do we create a welcoming culture where students actually feel seen, known, and valued? Uh, and and how do we shape that ministry environment both physically and relationally so that that belonging becomes the the soil where faith can actually grow? Um, and then we talk about uh this idea of that ongoing maintenance, right? Uh why why the work is never done. And and throughout this book, you're gonna have a ton of different assessments, uh, SWOT analysis, things that that will just make you pause and go, okay, how are we actually, how are we actually doing? Because I I mean I could look at a youth night and I got, I mean, I I have like 250 kids that may come to my youth a youth night. I'm like, hey, that's super great. Numbers are awesome. They are an indication of health at times. But if it's if that's the sole thing, then we're actually missing it. So how do I how do I actually pause in the midst of the the busyness and just take time to assess where we actually are and and to go back to that mission, vision, and priorities and say, this is where we want to be going. How are we uh how are we actually doing with that, right? It's that pause and go, um, I mean, I I remember going on so many road trips with my mom and dad, and my mom would have a map out, and my dad would be yelling at her because uh she would get the directions wrong. Uh, and and my dad never wanted to stop because we were always rushed. I think sometimes we have to stop and actually look at at the map that we have laid out. Um to use a different metaphor, um, obviously. So yeah. So that's uh that's some of the things that uh my book talks about.

SPEAKER_02: 28:07

That's great, man. Well, and again, I think the thoughtfulness uh because ministry can can get caught in the like, well, I have to get this week and next week and the week after, and the bigger view of that what we're actually trying to build and do uh that would outlast both the week that is now and the time that will be there, the two to ten to fifteen years, yeah, um, is is a is a careful, thoughtful, and maybe even sometimes methodical work um that is part of what it means to lead. And I think that's one of the things that's so important. And it's one of the things, and this is kind of the question I want to ask you to kind of wrap up some of our time is we can't we can't do it all. And so if we're trying to pave next steps for a hopeful 2026 and for the things and beyond, like what what what is enough of a thing that you would say, man, put some handles on this, double down on this, invest in this, because it does feel like a lot at once, and yet it is those careful little decisions like having a tidy storage room so that when a game calls for supplies, you have a ready-made room that has the stuff that you need, and you aren't just hoping you had three noodles left in the trunk of your car from the last time you did this. Uh, or it's it's the having the stuff documented well enough that when we talk about the importance of worship and discipleship, that we actually have some things marked down. So when we meet with with Eric or with Stephanie or with Mark, we actually have like conversation notes that extend beyond just the thing that they shared last week. Because I think a lot of ministry gets stuck when it lives in the I don't know, man, what the the the smallest iteration of the last time that we talked. Like if we could help them see growth over time, that comes from careful planning on us and not just their better memory. And so what are some of those things as you work through this and would encourage folks if someone was leading in their ministry for next year of the nine convictions, or maybe something that's even cropped up new for you, what would you point people to as like, man, I think this this matters more than anything else right now.

SPEAKER_00: 30:09

I think I think you look at scripture and throughout scripture you see these examples of of a way of building ministry. So just just a few kind of off the top of my head. Uh Nehemiah has to build a wall, okay? Uh, but before he built that wall, he didn't build a wall. He's gotta build a wall. But he didn't grab the ham.

SPEAKER_02: 30:31

He's gotta do it.

SPEAKER_00: 30:31

Yeah, he didn't grab the hammer and go for it. He started with prayer, he he assessed the situation, he cast a clear vision, organized his teams, executed with strategy, and when pressure started coming in, uh he he was okay. He's like, it's okay. We're this is what we're doing. We're doing this for God, we're rebuilding the kingdom, right? Uh in Jerusalem. Um, you look at Moses here, you know, uh Moses is given the the blueprints for how to build a tabernacle. He didn't just, you know, God didn't just say, hey, Moses, make it however you feel like. He gave details, materials, measurements, colors, roles, because the structure represented something sacred. And I think sometimes in youth ministry, we're like, hey, it's youth ministry. But but we have to remember what we're doing is the most sacred thing in the whole wide world, right? It's so sacred. We we we are given the biggest spiritual window in the life of a student, right? More kids come to faith before the age of 18. We're given it and we we just wing it, right? Uh and I remember my first ministry role. I got fired 10 months in, uh, so I did a really poor job of that. Uh but when I left, when I left, uh it was very much you learned to help fill a book.

SPEAKER_02: 31:41

That's right. That's right.

SPEAKER_00: 31:42

Right. Thank you, Lord, for that hard, hard season. Yes, Lord. Uh yes, Lord. Yes, yes.

SPEAKER_01: 31:49

Hard to say then. 100%.

SPEAKER_00: 31:52

Hated it, hated it. But but you know, when when I had my exit interview, which is the most intimidating thing, by the way, because it's like, how did I fail? And they'll just be honest with you. It was like, you you didn't you didn't build properly.

SPEAKER_01: 32:06

Maybe one of the most important moments, right? 100%. One of the most important moments.

SPEAKER_00: 32:10

100%. You you look at the apostle Paul, right? Here he is building churches, right? And not just churches, healthy churches. He didn't just preach and move on, he built systems of leadership and structure that sustained churches long after he was gone. And and so there is this, I mean, the big tension with youth ministry is we step into it, we think it's just fun and games, and we got to talk about Jesus with kids, but we have to remember there's organizational structure. And sometimes we lean one way or the other, and there's no really in-between. And so it's like you actually got to find that in-between, which is part of the reason why I wrote the book because I want to help you find the in-between. But but the last thing, the last thing is that Jesus actually built disciples, not crowds, right? And and I think that's such an important thing for us to remember. It doesn't matter how big our youth group is, that doesn't indicate health, right? What indicates health is is how is the person being formed into a disciple of Jesus? I love, I love the youth groups that have 15 kids because they can be so intentional with their discipleship. But the question is, are they actually going to be intentional? Right. I know lots of youth pastors who will go on a missions trip and they'll I'll be like, hey, so what are you doing with discipling? And they're like, Oh, dude, I love mission trips. I get to go, we go with an organization, the organization does everything, and I just get to hang out with kids. Well, I mean, I think that's how a lot of people view ministry. I just get to hang out with kids. No, you get to make disciples of Jesus. Jesus in Luke 6, 12 to 13, went to a mountain and prayed, and then he chose the 12 whom he named the apostles, right? And I think I think so much of what we have to do as youth pastors is actually stop, look at the look at the examples that are given to us, and then from there slowly and methodically and intentionally build a ministry. Now, the cool thing is this is that I've been at my church 15 years. If I would step into my context right now, 15 years ago, as multi-site, I would, I would get my butt kicked. But we grew, we grew from a really small youth group. We were like 13 senior high kids, 25 junior high kids, and and it was like this slow like being able to apply some of these things. And we get to look at where we are now, and I just celebrate, I celebrate because God gave me this vision that one day we would have a room full of kids worshiping Jesus, right? It wasn't just a room full of kids having fun. It's that they were worshiping Jesus and transforming the city that we live in. And so we actually get to start seeing that. And I, as the youth pastor who's been 15 years, I get to sit back and not be the guy always in the spotlight. And I just get to marvel at what God's doing. And it's actually like I I did the hard work, so ministry is actually easier now because I did all that hard work that's before. So I don't know if that answers your question, but but but I I really think just that we have to, you know, if you're if you're in youth ministry and you're like, I just are are we actually accomplishing something? I think you just need to stop and pause and start assessing and start looking at how, you know, there's biblical examples of of building and follow those things so that we can actually build healthy ministries. And again, we are building what matters most. This is the coolest thing ever. The biggest spiritual window. But we can't mess it up. We we have to take this as the prime opportunity uh to lead kids to know who Jesus is, to help them discover. I mean, our context is we're like, we're the pin of the Bible belt in the Fraser Valley. A lot of people go to church. Okay, right? Yeah, a lot of people go to church. Yeah, yeah. But it's like actually, are you just are you are you just checking the boxes and saying you're a Christian? Or are you loving Jesus and and allowing him to form you in your character and in your attitude and how you deal with your parents and all those things, right? Like, how's Jesus transforming your life? Because that's the indication of healthy ministry.

SPEAKER_02: 36:07

Good. Well, John, thank you so much for sharing and encouraging in that word because I do think it's critical. Uh no one's gonna give you the window to assess unless you take it. I think one of the things that's critical in this season of ministry, uh, the the turning of a year, the turning of a new season, maybe starting at a new church or leading in a new way, is to have the careful moments mode, season of assessment and the ways in which we are trying to gather up a vision for the bigger picture. Uh, it would be great to talk about the ways in which we get to hang out with kids. And it's one of the most fun and exciting things we get to do in youth ministry, but to not shluff off the intentional, sacred, important work that it actually is and hold ourselves and invite others to it. Let's not belittle the sacred window that we're in that's formative in the lives of teenagers, but invite others to the journey. So, Jonathan, I know a lot of great writers are also readers. So, what are some things that you've been reading and challenged by uh to encourage us with thinking about? What do you what are you working on next, thinking about and doing?

SPEAKER_00: 37:11

Oh like what what I'm personally reading or or what I'm uh or what I'm working towards.

SPEAKER_02: 37:20

What are things that are challenging, pushing you?

SPEAKER_00: 37:22

I I've I've been actually just listening to a ton of podcasts. So every every opportunity that I have, I think I've listened to most of yours. I've I've listened to a whole bunch of the download youth ministry ones. And I think for me, like I I I have actually some like intellectual disabilities uh where it's har it's hard to read sometimes. Uh and so listening uh tends to be uh really a really beneficial way for me to retain information. Uh but one one of the ones that I'm I'm just reading right now uh is The Return of the Prodigal Son by uh Henry Nowen. Uh that that just for me has just been that great reminder of my own posture, of my own heart, of where I am, of those moments where I walk away uh and wander from from the father. Uh and so some of that's the personal stuff. Um and there's just a ton of just really great, like there hasn't been a lot of new great youth ministry books out. Uh but I am still going to some of those older ones. Uh, you know, uh uh reading uh Chap Clark's uh Hurt book right now. Uh and that's just super beneficial just because we're walking with a lot of uh a lot of kids who are struggling, and uh, you know, and we're we're trying to to get some good resources also to those those families.

SPEAKER_02: 38:32

So well, John, if folks want to follow up more, uh Youth Ministry Blueprint is the book, but how do they find you, contact, and keep up with what you have going on next?

SPEAKER_00: 38:41

Yeah, so uh you can follow us on Instagram at Youth Ministry Blueprint. Uh you can also go to Amazon and order that book. It's uh like uh$29.50 in Canada, so it's gonna be cheaper in American prices. Uh but I mean I I I think that that's actually a killer deal because the amount of assessments and tools that you're gonna be given is uh is unbelievable. And we want to make it uh cost effective uh because we recognize that not every church has a wonderful big budget.

SPEAKER_02: 39:07

Well, John, thank you so much, my friend. Uh, as always, thank you for your work in ministry, your friendship beyond the microphone and the platform and the ways in which you message, text, and encourage. And brother, peace to you, and we'll talk to you again soon.

SPEAKER_00: 39:19

Awesome. Thanks, man. Appreciate it.