Youth Ministry Booster
Welcome to the Youth Ministry Booster podcast! The most honest and hilarious podcast in student ministry. Hosted by Zac Workun and Chad Higgins. We are the biggest fans of youth ministry leaders like you!
We are here for you with the humor and the help to engage, entertain, equip, and encourage.
Youth ministry is better together. Learn more @ http://www.youthministrybooster.com
Youth Ministry Booster
Why Youth Ministers Quit and How to Stay: Staying Power w/ Jody Livingston
Have you ever wondered why it seems so many youth ministers quit or leave around the three-year mark?
In this candid conversation with longtime youth ministry veteran and author Jody Livingston, we talk the secret to youth ministry longevity.
It's 2 old friends with personal stories, hard-earned wisdom, and practical insights that are meant to encourage youth ministers young and old. Fresh and wizened.
In Staying Power, Jody Livingston shares his journey of ministry longevity through the lens of his passion for Volkswagen buses and how he navigated challenging seasons to build a sustainable youth ministry career.
Grab a copy of Staying Power by Jody here.
https://www.lifeway.com/en/product/staying-power-P005850004
Key Points From This Interview
• Personal connection between father-son relationship and Volkswagen obsession
• The critical "2.5-3 year mark" where most youth ministers face their greatest challenges
• How unrealistic or unclear expectations from various church stakeholders create friction
• The importance of defining and communicating your own metrics for ministry success
• Navigating seasons where visible ministry fruit seems absent
• Recognizing burnout warning signs in yourself and ministry colleagues
• Finding authentic community and friendship despite the isolating nature of ministry
• Implementing intentional rest rather than merely "vegging out" on days off
• Practical approaches to sustaining your calling when ministry gets difficult
Remember your calling is in this time, to a place, and this next generation, now. When things get hard, lean into the why behind your ministry rather than focusing solely on results or metrics.
Aw snap, we look at looking, looking sharp today. Man, that is good.
Speaker 1:I'm not gonna lie. I felt a lot of pressure in the beard game jumping in today.
Speaker 2:Well, okay For our folks listening, though, we've had some bearded listeners. Uh, is I mean you've? You've been, you've been beautiful the last few years or more? Uh, a man of a goatee into a beard. Uh, what are, what are some of these? Some beard care, top tips, hot tip, yeah.
Speaker 1:I'm not a good one because I do very little.
Speaker 2:Very little, to be honest. Stay hydrated.
Speaker 1:I have a beard more out of laziness than anything else. Don't talk about that.
Speaker 2:No man, this is a commitment I decided I'm tired of shaving, so let's just grow the full beard.
Speaker 1:Just let it grow, just let it grow, just let it grow, just let it grow.
Speaker 2:Jody Livingston, here with us, a friend of the podcast, friend mostly to Chad and I for many, many years. We'll talk about it at the end of the show, but one of the folks, one of the few folks, that's been youth ministry podcasting longer than Chad and myself is the one the only Dr Jody Livingston, I presume which Jody we're so glad to have you, yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I wish I was a doctor. Well, for the purposes of the meme, we'll do that. Yeah, yeah, yeah for the purpose. You know that most of the people listening are like I have no idea, I don't get it.
Speaker 2:See, they can't disprove it, man, they can't that's right, we have found you.
Speaker 2:We have explored and found you. Uh, we're going to talk about some things in longevity ministry today, man, but one of the longest running questions that I have, and maybe it's just one of those have you ever known somebody long enough that you've just been afraid to ask them something? Of course, because it's just like that was the nickname they got introduced to you with and you were like, okay, I guess pickles is his name. I don't really know why he's called pickles. Jody, we all have little memes in our life, uh, and we have symbols. We have symbols, we have relics, we have things that we, you know, we wear about or we tattoo or we champion. For you, my friend, it is the VW bus, and more than the book, we'll talk about the book, but more than the book, tell me, jody Livingston, from Alabama and I live in California why is the VW bus the metanomy of your life? Why is that? The image, the sigil of house, living sin?
Speaker 1:Yeah, Well, let me say this first, because people who know me would I've never lived in Alabama, and but so I'm initially born in Vegas, grew up in Tennessee and then went to North Carolina to go to school at Southeastern, where you currently are, and then then kind of Atlanta area now out here on the left coast. So that's the skipped past Alabama. Confusing, I know, because there's an elephant on the front of the cover.
Speaker 2:Well, yeah, I mean, that was the second image.
Speaker 1:I've gotten a lot of crap from my friends who are Tennessee fans that I put.
Speaker 2:I thought that was a secret little crimson tide meme. I apologize that that wasn't there. Yeah, you lived in the Southeast and then you went to the West coast for a VW bus which kind of makes sense, but now the new books got an elephant and you're not even you're not even a Bama fan. What's?
Speaker 1:going on, yeah, okay. So here's the story of the Volkswagens.
Speaker 2:Okay, hold on. Is it all? Or is it specifically the bus? It's just Volkswagens in general. Okay, okay, you celebrate all Volkswagen.
Speaker 1:Yes, old ones, mainly the vintage right. This is a really sappy story. No, we love sappy, I think. Usually I tell funny stories. This one's not so much.
Speaker 1:So I was born in Las Vegas. Like I said, my dad was in the Air Force, which is so we were at Nellis Air Force Base, just up a few hours north of me right now, and then my parents got divorced and so when they did, I moved back to Tennessee with my mom. Both my mom and dad were high school sweethearts, kind of grew up there and that's why my dad was kind of stationed all over the world over the next, you know, 20 years and I knew my dad but didn't have a great relationship. It wasn't a bad one, it just wasn't one. And so you know you fast forward.
Speaker 1:I graduated high school, moved from Tennessee to North Carolina to go to Bible college. He retires from the Air Force, had been stationed in North Carolina, moved back to Tennessee to kind of plant his life, and I just realized as I got married, especially starting having kids, I didn't really know a whole lot about my dad and I didn't have a lot in common with my dad. I was studying to be a pastor, serving as a youth pastor. He had been a military guy working on Star 71, blackbirds and spy planes for 20 years.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but my dad loved Volkswagens and he was a mechanic. I convinced my wife we had no money to take whatever little we could scrounge together like probably less than a thousand bucks and I bought a Volkswagen Beetle 1972. Volkswagen Super Beetle off of Craigslist, yeah Off of Craigslist that was in some guy's backyard, yeah, and basically said if you can get it to start and the brakes will unseize, I'll take it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, so I bought it. I can drive it off the lawn.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's right and I did drive it home. There were no brakes. Used the e-brake to get home. Wouldn't idle had to keep my throttle on the gas. It was chaos, but what it did was it gave me a reason.
Speaker 1:It gave me a reason to call my dad, right. And so I called my dad and said, hey, I bought a Volkswagen and the brakes don't work. And he said, well, let me tell you how to fix it. And so then it just kind of more and more of those conversations. And then I just wanted a camper van. And then I just wanted a camper van, I wanted the bus at some point. So when we moved from Atlanta to here I had bought the bus from my brother-in-law who lived in North Carolina, so I couldn't bring them both.
Speaker 2:Sarah said you're only allowed one project, so sold the Beetle. We're not going to be that family.
Speaker 1:Listen, we're not that family. We're not in the South anymore.
Speaker 2:You can't just put every car in the backyard. You can't just have the car and the car parts on the lawn, right, right. Right, you can have a vehicle in the garage it's a project car but we can't be strewn in lawn parts all over. That's right, yeah that's right what?
Speaker 1:this isn't tennessee anymore. So we uh, yeah, so sold the rules out here. Yeah, so sold the beetle, shipped out the bus and uh, yeah, been.
Speaker 2:That's been it ever since now I just keep working on it and and southern california is like the best place if you love volkswagens, because there's a billion of them here, and shows and everything else shows and just those long highway drives, like you just see it right, like it's one of those, like it's it's a little harder to see it in atlanta traffic, but on, yeah, on those long highway one drives 405, it makes sense, man, great man.
Speaker 1:So that's kind of it. And then people find out you like something Along the way. It became my thing too. It wasn't just this thing with my dad, it was my thing too. And now everybody just keeps giving me Volkswagen stuff. Well, let's do talk about that, that is one thing.
Speaker 2:So we do talk about that. That is one thing for. So we'll talk about longevity and youth ministry. That is something. If you happen to develop a sigil or a token or a relic, people find out they will inundate you with that thing.
Speaker 2:So mine, mine was little Thor stuff, so I had little Thor figures of every shape and kind, so it was one of the like the Hasbro ones. I had some that were really cool. People would bring that were like the larger, like a 12 inch figures from like when the movies came out and it was like a big deal. Somebody got me like the actual like kind of like hammer replica thing from like a like a movie shop where it was. It was cool but it was one of those. There was a season I should I'll have to dig out pictures and try to throw them up or had this whole top of a bookshelf. That was just a lot of very similar Thor figures and so because it wasn't like collectibles, like it wasn't like a set, it was just kind of a mishmash where they were all the same kind of thing but very different things A couple Timu versions, a couple, yeah.
Speaker 2:A little Timu, a little McDonald's knockoff things, like something that you were like this is not worth anything, like this is a carpet cut out. Yeah, yeah, but yeah, my wife had the same thing for owls in her classroom, like she kind of put it out there. She loved like the woods and like that. You know, the owl is like. This was like at one point there was like a scary amount of like owl paraphernalia in her classroom and then she took it all down because it was like overwhelming her. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's amazing.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean behind me, for folks listening behind me. Obviously I've got a couple of paintings that are back there and hubcaps on the wall.
Speaker 2:I love the hubcaps. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:But off camera what you can't see I think I showed you before are probably 40 or more matchbox different versions of Volkskswagens, and then above that is like a lego one and just a couple big metal ones, and yeah, every now and then somebody brings me another t-shirt, I'm like oh thanks, you know, gotta have it, man, you gotta have it yeah, I don't know what to do with them, but I'm out of space.
Speaker 2:There's something to it. And they're back now too, right, they're back like the new, the new ev ones that everybody's cruising what I am?
Speaker 1:bummed that we talk about the EV ones.
Speaker 2:There's no yellow. Why no yellow on the new EV ones?
Speaker 1:I don't know. My bus is green. It's a real mess. Yeah, green green, green blue. Here's the thing, though. Everybody brings me the little ones, you know, like they're giving me the little guys. Yeah, nobody's giving me real ones, so he's given me real ones.
Speaker 2:So it's like if you love me, really love me.
Speaker 1:Yeah, how about a real?
Speaker 2:one, jingle them keys. Come on now. You know, what I'm saying. Oh my gosh. Well, jody, we got you today. Always good to talk, friend, but for the sake of the podcast, we wanted to talk a little bit about the new book from our friends at Lifeway and the idea of longevity in ministry, and I think some of us at the end of these hot summer months are asking the question. I'm going to just quit, yeah, you thought about it in May.
Speaker 1:You thought about it in May and you're like, nah, it's going to hang on. I got camp. Yeah, I don't want to bail out too early.
Speaker 2:That's not kind to the kids.
Speaker 1:That's right, I want to do right, I'm going to finish the summer out, and then I'm going to bail right when small groups start.
Speaker 2:Yes, and yet we persist, yeah. So, Jody, help me a little bit, Maybe we can lay this out. Why do most folks, from your experience and conversation and wisdom and 25-plus years of ministry, why do some folks quit? Like why is that? Does it feel like there's no other option? Does it feel like they just if they keep doing this, they're going to lose faith, lose heart? I know that we have a separate conversation a little bit about some of the reasons that we feel pressured out, but for the folks that were, just like I'm done, I'm tapping out towels in, I'm out. What are some of those leading causes?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think you know it's probably a little different for everybody. To be honest, I think we hear it feels like we're hearing more and more about burnout these days. I don't know if it's happening more or if we're just talking about it more. It's always hard to tell, I think in general. So I don't know, and maybe you you may have some, you guys may have some more data on this. My general feeling and conviction is that most folks leave right around the two and a half to three year mark and I think there's just something about that time time in where things get really hard. You've kind of you've come in and you run out and you've used all your good ideas and they know who you are. You know who they are. Something crazy generally happens right in there.
Speaker 2:It can be different, but it'll happen Something about who they are, who you are. That just creates friction.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I can think back. The very first church I served at in college was a small little church of 50 people on a high attendance Sunday with gospel singing and everybody brought a friend because there was a potluck.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Two and a half years in, that church decided to merge with another one and they didn't need two youth pastors and my pastor that I've been serving with was going to the mission field. So there was that one. The second church that I served at two and a half years in had a pastoral change and there was about six months there. It was like am I going to quit or be fired? First Just trying to figure out new expectations and what that looks like. When we ended up in Atlanta now, first full-time role, two and a half, three years in big blow up with a couple of volunteers, one of whom was our senior pastor's wife, and so you're trying to navigate and work through those things here. We got here and three years in was COVID.
Speaker 1:I don't know what it is. It just feels like everybody I talk to could kind of say, yeah, right about there, something happened. I think if we don't expect that, it'll derail us. And so you know, if you're listening and you're like man, I'm only a year in Lindsay, circle that on your calendar because it's coming. Yeah, set that alarm, set that calendar alert.
Speaker 2:Well, I think some of it too is just the friction of relationship, right, totally there is. I mean, if you want to call it a honeymoon period or a breaking in period, when everybody's new there's, you know, either more grace or more curiosity. When we get more familiar and not familiar in like I know you in a write off way, but familiar and like we just know each other better, there's a bigger opportunity to say the things that maybe we were afraid to say otherwise. And so I think it's one of those. Especially in a role of leadership or in student ministry, what's often the case is it's leadership young, younger, youthful leadership met with a penchant for innovation or change or transformation. And I think that kind of eagerness and desire met with youthfulness and I say that lightly because I think sometimes even a 37-year-old youth pastor can be the youthful person on staff at a church sometimes that those two forces sometimes can create a little bit of a of a chemical reaction.
Speaker 1:And sometimes it's expectations right. I mean a lot of times it comes up. So if, especially depending on how your process was to be hired, if you're hired through a search team or a search committee, you've got to recognize and it's not a bad thing, but the committee who hired you probably are the people that are most passionate about student ministry.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, and they're eager.
Speaker 1:Some of them have only turned to be a part of that committee Most of them right, like they were the first ones to say yes.
Speaker 1:They said yes, yeah, yeah, yeah, everyone else is like no, you got to be and so what you hear from them, it's not that it's not accurate, it just may not represent the church as a whole. And so you get in. Everybody's excited, you're there, but everybody has different expectations, including you, because you've listened to them and so trying to navigate and understand what exactly are the expectations at large from the church.
Speaker 2:Say more about that, because I think that's one of the things. I think a lot of folks hear expectations and they immediately tether it to job performance review from a before this next December. But what I hear you say is there might even be people that were not in a formal capacity that maybe we should or shouldn't be listening to for expectations. Would you, would you say a little more about that as someone who's been a few different places and been wizened to it?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think you know you may. Everybody wants to be a part of a small, vibrant, close-knit, growing church. Right have?
Speaker 1:it all, yeah, just doesn't exist. And so everybody loves the idea that teenagers are around and they want a lot of them. Yeah, but what does that mean? And when you start talking about expectations, everybody has a different expectation of what that means, and so maybe some people may have expectations around how many events you're doing. They may be really granular. Others might just want them to be minding their business and being kind of respectful in the service they don't want you running in the halls.
Speaker 1:They don't want you running in the halls. Hey, there's a nick in the wall from the lock-in that you had. You know, there's kind of those things. Sometimes it's expectations on if you're married it's a spouse their involvement or not.
Speaker 2:We don't see your spouse around here, that much yeah we've heard plenty of that.
Speaker 1:Your kids, you know it's the expectation that your kids are going to be at every children's event, absolutely, yeah, you know, like you grew up in, my kids grew up in a very glass house. I mean, everybody's looking and, and so the challenge then becomes okay, how do I allow my kids to be my kids, my wife to be my wife and me, uh, to still be faithful here and manage all those expectations? And it just comes to a ton of conversation. And I think what happens a lot when you're younger in ministry or newer in ministry, you don't always recognize the ripples that are affecting your ministry. You're so focused on your students, your parents, your volunteers, maybe your boss or your pastor, yeah, yeah, well, the people you, maybe your boss or your pastor, yeah, yeah, the four.
Speaker 2:Well, the people you're meeting with formally right Like that's always, I think a lot of folks um yeah, everybody wants the tight knit vibrant, which means that we've got to have ear to the ground, not just a year in the office. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:So what does it look like for me to, you know, take some time and find some ways to have conversations with you know, maybe some of the senior adults in my church or some folks who don't have kids, or just people who may have a little more influence, that I don't interact with as much and it's not like I'm trying to, you know, suck up or kind of just get in. People please, People please. I just need to know like the perspective.
Speaker 2:Well, need to know, like the perspective, well, need to know. But then also, find ways to speak back, because I think a lot of folks, in absence of information, will create misinformation, and so what they don't know is what's happening outside of what they can see.
Speaker 2:So, because all they've seen is kids running in the hall, they think that that's all there is Now that's not great and that's not grown but that is the tendency of being a person and so I think in many ways, as we're like we've talked about this before on the podcast that youth ministry as communicator is an important phrase beyond just what you preach or teach, like what you're communicating when you get announcement time or when you have the chance to send out an email or contribute to the church newsletter or record a video for social media, to be thoughtful of the ways in which these are messagings, to be on just the ministry as what I have to share with the students, not because it's the gospel, but because it is the good news of what's happening in the ministry.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and well, and recognize this too, not to neglect those things. Yeah, in many, many ways, many times, you determine what the measurement of success in your ministry is. You determine what the measurement of success in your ministry is and you get mad when people hold you to a certain metric. It wasn't yours, but it wasn't yours. But listen, if every time you get up, you talk about how many kids went to camp, or how many kids got saved at camp, or how many people went on the mission trip, or how many kids you had at this, or what you're giving them is numbers and metric, you're teaching them in that moment that what is successful is how many?
Speaker 2:Yeah, and the reality is this year and then 70 go next year. How are they supposed to be the same amount of side for you? Yeah.
Speaker 1:Now, all of a sudden, their expectation was well, we would continue to take more, but you took less, you took less, yeah, and so when you get up and you have those opportunities, it's really important that you are intentional about conveying a measurement of success that you are actually measuring your ministry by, because you know we've all had this happen. You come back from camp and they say how many kids got saved?
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And you say, or one. And they say, well, if only one gives their life to Jesus, it was worth it. They're giving you the window. Yeah, yeah, yeah, if only one, it was worth it. And I always push back and say no, no, no, no. If we were obedient and faithful and postured our kids towards the Lord, and our kids understood what it means to take one more step in their relationship with Jesus, that's the win, that's the goal and the win with Jesus, that's the win. That's the goal and the win. But you've got to be able to convey that and manage some of those, because I just think sometimes we unintentionally undermine our own selves because we tell people what we think they want to hear and in doing so, because we're trying to.
Speaker 2:I'm doing a good job.
Speaker 1:I want them to be excited, so I'm going to tell them what I think they'll be excited for, and in reality, I'm setting an expectation. I can't, I can't manage, I can't even meet that expectation, and it's not an expectation that I have on myself, it's good, and so I need you just, I think to your point, when you have those moments, to communicate. Communicate what God's doing in the lives of your students. Don't always tie that to a metric.
Speaker 2:There's a real widening of the thing that. So this is the question that I have for you talk about in the book of calling and the why of your ministry being the crucial point or the crucible. Say a little bit more in light of feeling disingenuous about where things are at or feeling like I was people pleasing and not being authentic. Joey, take us back to not just the encouragement of remember your why, but break it down into how that is like functionally important for, like the livelihood and direction and clarity of the minister.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I can remember the time that I remember most, we it was, um, we just got on staff at a church uh in North Carolina Uh, the second one I mentioned there and they had not had a youth pastor, really a real youth pastor, before. And so I'm coming on and I remember, Sarah, my wife and I, we didn't, you know, we, we show up on Wednesday night, there are no kids. Uh, we'd seen some't, you know we, we show up on Wednesday night and there are no kids. Uh, we'd seen some kids, you know, in the church on Sunday. So we knew they existed and we're like, okay, what do we do? There's no, no one came, you know. And so we kind of said, okay, well, let's just spend some time praying. And so we did.
Speaker 1:And the second week happens and there are no kids. And Zach, I'm not lying when I tell you, for three months, three months, no kids, unless a family visited our church and had teenagers. And then you're like, hey, look, if you'll come back and bring friends, we'll have a youth group, you know. And in those moments everybody's like what the heck are you doing? I thought we hired you to be a youth pastor. You know why are no kids coming to your youth program and you're like I don't know, why don't you bring them, you know, and so in that season you're just oh man leaning in and saying God, I know you brought us here and I know you've called me to this.
Speaker 1:You've called me to this generation, to this place at this time, and I don't know what you're doing, but we're going to be faithful to prepare and pray for those who will come. And you have to weather those, not just listen. In that moment, in a situation like that, it's not the outward critics that are the worst.
Speaker 1:It's it's inward, it's like, well, maybe I'm not good at this or maybe I misread that, or gosh, what if? What if no one ever comes? Or you know, I mean there's just so many things. You come back to no, no, no, no, no, no. This time, this place, this generation, no, no, no, no, no. This time, this place, this generation, this calling this role and they'll come. And you know, I don't know, there's no guarantee in that. But eight years later we're, we're meeting in a two different, the second largest, larger rooms. You know that we moved into because now we're running 45, 50 kids and we're trying to figure out how do we manage this without a budget to support this? And now it's like, oh yeah, man, we got to get volunteers, but but it's easy in those seasons to go. I think I don't think I should be doing this, I'm not very good at it, and you just run back to no, no, no, no. I know this is what God's called me to do.
Speaker 2:It's not how I thought it would look, and so I'm gonna figure that out. You feel like for folks should be formalized in a way that it's like written down or put on a shelf or held somewhere, like how, um, beyond just the like, the necessity of reminding ourselves or calling, calling out the calling that is on us, like maybe even to each other, to a brother or sister, that's called like how, how, how formal is that for you, how, uh, what does that look like for you to remember? That Is that? Is that in the moment of quiet? Is that in a moment of frustration? Like, give us a little bit of of, maybe insider help that way?
Speaker 1:I, I, I'm a pretty visual guy, so it's helpful for me to have, like I'm looking right here, to the left of something I have on my wall right now you know that I wrote and put here to remind me of in this season of my ministry.
Speaker 1:Hey, don't forget this. I like something there to remind me. Sometimes it's been a sticky note on my computer. Sometimes it's been you know, been the wallpaper on my phone. I think I tend to run to journaling when I am really struggling. It's the only time I journal. I joke all the time Like if anybody finds it when I'm dead, they're going to be like man. This guy's life was the worst.
Speaker 2:Got some sad poetry here, my man. Nothing ever happened.
Speaker 1:Some of those entries are years apart, you know. But but I think for me being able to just get my thoughts and feelings out, in a way and I'm not a very I'm not great at that the feeling part of it, and so I have to stop sometimes and remind myself of what that looks like. And that means I have to slow down on purpose and because I'm such a I'm such a driven guy, like I always want to take the next hill, I give me the next thing If, if things get hard, give me a bigger hill. You know, like I just leaned in, so so sometimes loosen up on the e-brake, get a little roll.
Speaker 2:That Just lean in. So so sometimes, loosen up on the e-brake, get a little roll up, that's right yeah.
Speaker 1:So sometimes I just need a reminder that you know is is present in front of me, and sometimes that comes through journaling. Sometimes that comes through A lot of times it comes through something that I look at often as a reminder it, you know, john Acuff has his book Soundtracks. It's a great book. John Acuff has his book Soundtracks. It's a great book, and he talks a lot about these soundtracks that we begin to believe and how we need to change that soundtrack. I think that's so true in ministry, and so I just decided a while ago what my soundtrack is going to be, and I feel like it's consistent with what the Lord has done in my life and where he's led me, and I'm going to hold tight to that.
Speaker 2:And the soundtrack for Money ball also. Yeah, also okay, uh, brother, uh helpful, good, thoughtful. But for our friends that maybe haven't identified that for themselves and we're big fans I say booster is all about community. How do we help see it in somebody else? What are some signs that a leader is running on fumes? A risk of checking out or or quitting and not not even like, oh you, you gotta stay, man, like, not everybody needs to stay where they're at for all time. But looking out for the other folks that are called. Nobody understands the calling like the called like the our calling demands community. How do we look out for our friends that are leading in ministry? In a way they're like hey, man, like I think you got a check engine light on. Or hey, brother, you look like you're running on fumes. Uh, let's put a little gas in that tank. What are some of the things that you're looking for, having done this for two decades plus, that you've seen in others, that you would kind of maybe illuminate for us to help check in on our friends?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think if you see and notice people starting to be withdrawn and quiet, that's a big time Not answering the text, not returning the phone call. Hey, you know, and sometimes we're busy, you know, so that's part of it too. But if it's ongoing and they're just getting real quiet or withdrawn, that's always something to me. I'm like, hey, I need to see what's going on there. I think you know other things, especially if you know them well. Man, you feel a little on edge lately, or irritable, or overly critical about things.
Speaker 2:Those are usually Not about a sandwich at Subway.
Speaker 1:Gosh man, it was just the mustard you know, toast, come on man Like here, you want my pickle? I think right, Right.
Speaker 2:Uh, I think pickles, that's it yeah that's right.
Speaker 1:So, like, I think those are our key things. Honestly, Zach, I think the thing that that is most often wrong is that we don't ask and so, like being the friend in ministry that's going to ask, hey, how are you doing? And then when they say I'm okay, I'm fine, Then you say, are you lying to me? And then they're going to say no, I'm not lying.
Speaker 1:And then you say are you lying to me about lying to me? And they're going to be like a little, I am a little, yeah. And then it's what's going on? And then you've going to be like a little, I am a little, yeah, and then it's what's going on? And then you've got to be a friend that doesn't want to solve it. And that's hard for us in ministry because I want to fix it Right. That's what I do. I help people fix things, but often just listening and just saying man, I'm sorry, and you know, I want to be there and support and pray and just be a willing listener to all of your complaints and moaning and gently, consistently remind you of the things you already know. Because the problem in ministry is we spend so much of our time counseling others and studying. We know the right thing to do, I know what to do. You just forget to apply it for ourselves.
Speaker 2:Yeah, or I don't want to, right, I mean or I don't want to oh and so yeah, so then it comes down to leaders that avoid all the practices, disciplines and community that they would recommend to their people constantly right. So, and, and there are there is a small group shepherd without a small group.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I can't be in a small group. I I got to be in service, you know.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think I got to. I got to find others to delegate. Yeah.
Speaker 1:I got no time for that. I think, um. When I think back to this, I mean there have been some. You stay in ministry, and those seasons are the ones I find myself saying in my own rawness of prayer it's like man, Lord, I know your word says you are good and kind and patient and loving and faithful, but it does not feel like it right now. This feels unkind, this feels the opposite of everything that I read about you, and so I'm choosing to allow my head to steer my heart until my heart can catch up. I'm going to echo the plea of the Father in Mark 9.
Speaker 1:I do believe, but I need you to help my unbelief in the in this season and and I've got to give myself some grace there in that season because you know you you can't sit and counsel the needs of others over, and, over and over and and not feel the weight of that. If you're not, you know you're human right. You counsel the needs of others over and, over and over and and not feel the weight of that. If you're not, you know you're human right. You're walking through your own mess too, and often you don't have the same. Who do you? Who do you go to when you're not doing well? Often we feel like we don't have anyone.
Speaker 2:I think that's one of the important things to name, especially for our friends that are maybe in the beginning or the middle phases, maybe they're right before that three-year mark is that ministry necessarily takes a toll or drains a battery or empties a tank. That is just. We talk about the importance of leading relationally or youth ministry is driven by relationships. That has a depleting effect. It's a good thing, it's a right thing that that has a depleting effect. Like it's a. It's a good thing, it's a right thing. Um, but the careful thing is to realize much like you said earlier to to go ahead and mark in your calendar that you're going to have a little less to give until you carve out the time to receive more. And I think that's one of the things that we encourage folks is that like yeah, it's. There's not a way to prevent, like you know, fuel loss. There's not a way to like keep your batteries at full all the time. Like this is a matter of like knowing how to to energize, deploy and recharge. Like it takes. It takes the cycles.
Speaker 2:I mean this is why ministry probably better understood in seasons than it is in Sundays. Right, like it isn't just like well, this one was good, this one was bad. Like this is where we are. We are doing this work over the course of we are, we are hoping for this, uh, in season of planting and nourishing and harvesting, like it doesn't just all happen this week or not, and so no, and and that's that's why that I mean honestly, that's why longevity is so important, because when I am, oh, you'll miss it.
Speaker 1:You'll miss it If you don't sit around long enough, you'll never get to see it, you'll miss it.
Speaker 2:You're planting grass seed and never mowing.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you talk to, and we talked to a youth pastor and they're like how long have you been doing this? Like 10 years, but you really talk to him. It's like two years over.
Speaker 1:You don't even understand the joy that comes through this because you've not sat still long enough, sister, to like lead and listen to see this You're churning through stuff before God can really grow you and that three to five year mark, man, you will grow more in that three to five year mark than you will the entirety of your season. Those lessons carry you forward forever. And here's something. Here's something you talked about being intentional and viewing those seasons. This is easy in student ministry because our, our, our year is so predictable right Camps and mission trips and small group launches.
Speaker 2:Ironically, after you do three of them, you kind of know what to expect. I'm good. Yeah, we can do this.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you know. But here's the thing I've learned the hard way is I have to be intentional with my rest and for a long time it was like my day off was my day off and it's like, oh, if I don't, I'm just, I'm resting, you know, but I'm not being filled, I'm just, I'm just in a, you know coma.
Speaker 2:I'm just doing whatever you know.
Speaker 1:And so I've had to learn and I'm still learning. I need to be intentional with that rest and find things that are life-giving. It doesn't mean I don't still have to do chores at home I do but my day off just can't be me sitting on the couch watching Netflix all day. Yeah, that's not going to fill me at all, that's just mind numbing. I need something that's going to breathe some life back into me. And and that's different for everybody, you know but if you just let it come and go, it'll. You'll look around and you're like what happened, man, to that day or that week or those seasons? And you know, I remember being bivocational. My day off from the church was a day of work somewhere else.
Speaker 2:There was no real vacation time to take, and you know I had to be it.
Speaker 1:Maybe it was an evening, it was a, you know, Sunday afternoon, it was a whatever. It doesn't matter when or how long, it just means when it comes. I can have a plan. I have to have a plan, or I'll end up on YouTube or listen to the podcast, or watching Netflix, or you know doing something that, yeah, or call of Duty, or you know Fortnite or not, me I don't, but you know somebody.
Speaker 1:I think there's just things and you can't. You can't allow that time to be taken from you. The reason, I mean there's a reason the Bible speaks so much about Sabbath and just because you're in the ministry doesn't mean you're exempt. You know you've got to. If you're going to last in this thing at all, everything you do has to be an overflow of what God is doing in you. Already You've got to move and serve from a place of healthy rest. Move and serve and teach from a place of time in the word and time with the Lord. It doesn't mean it's always going to be a luscious garden. Right, you're going to have some dry seasons, difficult seasons, but man, even in those seasons God's teaching you, he's showing you stuff, he's making you, molding you better, holding you better.
Speaker 1:And the lure of ministry youth ministry, I think more than any other, is that you can get enough accolades from people and feel pretty good about yourself. You can garner a little bit of a following and kind of build your own kingdom if you will, and especially now. You can kind of build enough of a platform and you can fake it for I don't know, a couple of years, but not forever, and then you're going to end up selling real estate or cars somewhere, because you're really good at selling things. You've been selling Jesus for quite some time. But then what you know, then what? Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:Well, we've, we've talked Possible and give us a little more time back.
Speaker 1:Yeah for sure I wish We've talked about calling already. You've got to know that. We've talked about expectations already. You've got to know that We've talked a little bit not as directly about healthy rhythms, establishing healthy rhythms for your life. I think that's really significant, especially if you're young with a family, or even older with a family. Like this idea of balancing family ministry is total bunk Balance is kind of a joke.
Speaker 2:There is no balance, don't do it. There's no balance, but you can fight for health. The board always rolls back and forth, which is fine. That's part of learning it, it's surfing it. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:I don't know anybody who's been concerned about balancing ministry and family. That's still in ministry. They just leave, um, and so you've got to recognize the seasons to your point earlier that some seasons my family needs me more and some seasons my ministry needs me more. And I need to be able to do that in the back of the book, by the way, uh, because I know that folks are going to read it wrestling with this idea. I can give you here's seven reasons to leave.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so right, and so if you're sitting here, if you need them, if you read all this, you're like I still don't want to stay. Like, if I didn't do it, help me write the painful email.
Speaker 1:It was kind of my out right, like here's a here's, let me convince you to stay, and it's like but if you're not gonna, uh, if I didn't do a great job, let me give you this at least. So here's helpful, but I do think that's helpful to think through if I'm considering leaving. Is this valid, right? And so there's some reasons there. Honestly, man, I think it's hard to list because I think what I tried to do in the book was distill it down to the essentials, right? I wanted a short read that you could take and apply, and here's the things that matter most, the things that people go crazy or I feel like are missed often are you know? It's the things like they weren't really called in the first place. They just really liked the idea of student ministry and had a good time.
Speaker 2:They knew it when they were a teenager, so they want to do it.
Speaker 1:And so you. So you kind of know that I think the expectation thing is huge. I think healthy rhythms in your own personal walk are massive. You really need to have community and I think, um, that's the one I neglected most early Is from what place?
Speaker 2:from not knowing who, not thinking you need it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think I think I was told you can't have friends in the church you serve in, like don't do it and avoid it. It was that was the worst advice, because what it meant was I was really isolated for most of my ministry early on because I just kept everyone at arm's length and I had accountability. I had friends but they were in ministry states, away hours away, and there was nobody I was doing life with on a consistent basis, on a day-to-day basis. It was, you know, I just was afraid so much to let people in and ministry is lonely enough, you don't have to help it, right. I just was afraid so much to let people in and ministry is lonely enough, you don't have to help it right.
Speaker 1:And so I would say and I give this, I tell this story in the book, but this was even more recent we moved here kind of starting over again, trying to find some friendships. I looked around and realized, man, I don't really think I have a good close friend here. And so there's a guy here at our church. His daughters are similar age and they kind of hang out some and I literally was like it's the most awkward thing ever. But like, hey, man, like I don't know, I just realized I don't have a lot of friends and I just got in this season. I need somebody that can like just grab lunch or just talk and do life.
Speaker 1:You know that doesn't care, they're not impressed with me, they don't care that I'm a pastor and so, like I'm just curious if you'd be my friend, I felt like I was passing the note in junior high. You know, check yes or no.
Speaker 2:Do you want to be friend? Do you want to be my friend? But it may be that it was the most awkward and it was scary. It was terrifying, I was terrified, and you know what was it?
Speaker 1:He said gosh man, I have been thinking the same. I needed that, I need that too, and you know that's how it started. And now we're hanging out and talking and doing all kinds of things. But I think, recognizing I can't be isolated in this. I have to have friends in my life that aren't just acquaintances or people I talk to occasionally or who I can text. I need people who see me and who aren't impressed with me. They don't care that I'm a pastor or not a pastor, or I'm a youth minister or not a minister. They just know I like Volkswagens and will go to a Volkswagen show with me because they care. I just so many conversations that I have with youth ministers and youth pastors, especially younger. Now, for whatever reason, it feels like the younger youth pastors and youth ministers are just incredibly lonely and that's a dangerous place to be. That's just a dangerous place to be. And so find some friends, find some community and do life with people and don't talk about church.
Speaker 1:That means you might not go out to dinner together because you're going to end up talking about church. It means maybe you're going to go bowling together or axe throwing. You know like you're doing something Fishing, Fishing you know, like you're doing something Fishing. I just think that's such a challenge that we don't talk about enough. But it'll derail you Because isolation creates boredom, boredom breeds temptation, temptation causes failure. That's a dangerous path, dangerous, dangerous pathway.
Speaker 2:Yeah, man, well, jody, the book is out. That's a dangerous, that's a dangerous path, dangerous, dangerous pathway. Yeah, man, well, jody, the book is out. It's wonderful. We'll share links in it below. Thank you, my friend, for writing it, contributing to it, for being a friend and a podcaster beyond just the work that we share, but a friend in life too, man. So thank you so much for that. We're going to be hearing from Jody again soon as we celebrate this fall 10 years of the Booster podcast. Little did you know, factoid teasing what comes in a few weeks from now. Jody's actually the one that got us to do it, because he knew before we knew what we needed to know, or he's not. Friends, Jody Livingston, love the book. Thank you so much, my friend, and we'll see everybody out real soon.
Speaker 1:Amen Thanks again.
