Youth Ministry Booster
Welcome to the Youth Ministry Booster podcast! The most honest and hilarious podcast in student ministry. Hosted by Zac Workun and Chad Higgins. We are the biggest fans of youth ministry leaders like you!
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Youth Ministry Booster
Youth Ministry: Fight Burnout; Finding Expectancy w/ Jameson Barker
If you're experiencing ministry burnout or feeling your passion fading, establish accountability with someone who knows you well enough to speak truth when you're drifting, and intentionally surround yourself with those newer to ministry who bring fresh perspective and enthusiasm.
SPECIAL GUEST ALERT: Jameson Barker
Veteran youth minister Jameson Barker shares how he maintains ministry passion after two decades of service by shifting from complacency to expectancy.
Here's some practical strategies for staying spiritually engaged when ministry routines become all too familiar.
• Fighting complacency after 20+ years in youth ministry
• How routines and familiarity can lead to spiritual disengagement
• Creating a mindset of expectancy through intentional daily practices
• Recognizing warning signs when your heart begins to drift
• The importance of staying present during ministry moments
• Creating unexpected moments of joy and connection for your team
• Building accountability relationships with people who know you well
• Surrounding yourself with younger staff to maintain freshness and enthusiasm
• Practical ways to approach familiar events with renewed anticipation
A snack on take two. This is my fault. James said thank you for bringing the energy every single time. Listen, buddy.
Speaker 2:thanks for making the drive from Texas.
Speaker 1:Absolutely, we're going to hang out in Oklahoma. We're going to eat Mediterranean food.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we are.
Speaker 1:Which is why you drive to Oklahoma Exactly.
Speaker 2:I equate Oklahoma with Mediterranean food. I don't know about anybody else.
Speaker 1:I don't know if you've had Oklahoma lamb, but we're about to.
Speaker 2:We're rolling into easter season. We're gonna have a little lamb.
Speaker 1:Well, hey, one of the things a little bit the podcast is sometimes this is about introducing folks to people that we're getting to know, that they should know. Other times it's just letting everybody know here's who we know, and they ought to know them too. So, buddy, I'd you're in that category. I feel like this is long overdue for the countless texts, phone calls, zoom calls, like. I think you've probably logged as many hours like online as we. We've been friends more online than offline.
Speaker 1:Yes, so anytime we get to hang out in person. It always feels like this weird, like we know each other but we haven't been in the room as much together, as as much as we know about each other.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah, we've gone on runs in the morning together, but yeah we would not not frequently enough right.
Speaker 1:Like we've done like all the things but not like in enough repetition or whatever yeah, so, yeah so uh hashtag headband run club.
Speaker 2:I was just about to say that.
Speaker 1:I went on one yesterday. Yeah, it was good, it was a little. Yeah, I've been back after I did. I had, like the plantar fasciitis real bad, and the left foot which is like and that's no fun. You, just all you can do is take time off, yeah, which is like not great. It gets even worse. Not the hurt, but the like. Oh man, I'm going to miss this.
Speaker 2:Oh, yeah, yeah, and the soreness afterwards, all the things.
Speaker 1:So much, so much. So. Well, man, we're here, we're going to talk about some things related to the youth pastor, but I want folks to get to know you because we're going to hang out in May in Nashville for the experience and season. A lot of us have either planned one or shared it one, and and you, you had a little, uh, a little, even old dog, new tricks, that's right learning experience.
Speaker 2:Maybe had a little learning experience you were sharing earlier.
Speaker 1:I'd love for you to share just uh, you know like sometimes the best laid plans, because you are a methodical guy, I am planned out, researched out, ready to go, uh, but sometimes best laid plans of mice menan and Jameson land a little different.
Speaker 2:Yes, tell us. Yeah, tell us what you're still learning. Yes, so I was planning to teach at this D now. It was my second time doing it. I had served there and spoken with them.
Speaker 1:Familiarity in the room. Yes, your people. Yeah, they know me, I know them. Yeah, I know them yeah.
Speaker 2:And, uh, I thankfully had a good experience last year, so got invited back Um, and so I was planning and prepping and I was walking them through the weekend, was walking them through Matthew 4, 19. So spent Friday night talking about the word follow because our culture has a very different definition of the word follow than Jesus did back then and so laid that out, um gave an invitation, had several students accept Christ that night. Like it was really really awesome on the first night. Then we get to Saturday morning and I walk them through the next part, which is the me and I, so basically unpacking who Jesus is. And then that night we get to the service and I'm walking them through the we'll make you fishers of men part and so really honing in on the idea that Jesus makes us into something like he. It's not a question mark, it's a directive. I will make it.
Speaker 1:It's not wishful thinking of like maybe one day yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yes.
Speaker 1:Yeah, send your money, and now and maybe it'll work out for you.
Speaker 2:Three easy installments of 1999.
Speaker 1:Oh Jesus, installments, yes, discipleship and installments Like, like, what is the the payment? Like a Klarna or a Firm or whatever? Yeah, yeah, yeah, great. So, as I was laying it out, please don't market that to anyone. That's awful, don't do it.
Speaker 2:So I had just been praying through it and I was like the Lord had brought two stories to mind about when Jesus makes someone into something different. So number one was blind Bartimaeus, and so taking a beggar on the side of the road and making him into a disciple on the road with.
Speaker 2:Jesus. And then the second story I chose was Legion being thrown into the pigs and the pigs run off the cliff and then this guy, just his life completely changed. And so, as I was laying it out, I was like it makes sense to do a invitation for salvation at the end of Blind Bartimaeus' story. Yeah, Because when Jesus invites him to come to him, I mean the guy springs up like just jumps up, runs to Jesus, yeah, and so that's what Jesus calls us to and we accept him and surrender our life to him.
Speaker 1:He wants us to Sticking close to the text. Yeah, Run to him.
Speaker 2:So I'm like literally, let's do that this night. So in the middle of the message, I decided to do this invitation for salvation and I was a little bit hesitant, but just the more I thought about it I was like it sticks with the text, let's do it. So get up there, I'm teaching. I get to that point in the message and I decide to offer this invitation for salvation. Now know that the lights are on, everybody's eyes are open and I'm because I'm calling them to do something bold, like Bartimaeus did Um cause. If you know that passage, he was in the face of opposition, everybody was telling him to shut up and be quiet.
Speaker 1:What are you saying? Be silent, leave Jesus alone.
Speaker 2:You fool, yeah, and so, and when we're called to enter into a relationship with Jesus, we're called to have that kind of boldness too. And so I was like, hey, you know, invitation, if this is something you want tonight, you want to accept Christ for the very first time, I just want you to stand up in this moment. And nobody stands up, just crazy.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:And so I'm standing there like is anybody going to respond?
Speaker 2:It's fine if they don't, but I think what I learned in that moment was I didn't have the students with me yet in the message to elicit that kind of response Because at the end, once we were done with the story of Legion and all of that, the difference in those stories is that Blind Bartimaeus follows Jesus and becomes his disciple on the road with him. Legion wants to follow Jesus. That guy says, hey, can I come with you? And Jesus says, no, I want you to go and tell everyone who you know.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you're not partying it up.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, it's being sent, and so that was my objective. And the second invitation was the idea or the response for baptism call to ministry. And then who do you need to reach for the gospel? And so opened up the altar and there was a huge response. Students wanted to get baptized, students wanted to be called to ministry, and then the altar was just flooded with kids who were like just burdened for friends and family members and coworkers and the whole gamut. And there were also students who went back for salvation, and so at least that's what was told to me.
Speaker 1:And so.
Speaker 2:I think I just learned in that moment, like they weren't with me yet, and so I learned to be more able and willing, and my Holy Spirit inside of me, to be more attentive to the room, to know if I need to cancel that or I need to move forward with it, or just knowing that, like how disruptive it can be.
Speaker 1:Because I think one of the things and this is what I think some of the meat of we're going to get into is that in the spiritual life, if we're going to get into, is that in the spiritual life church especially, so highbrow word liturgy but just the rhythms of as we meet and gather together, like certain things come at certain moments, we expect certain things at certain times, and so the disruptive moments that, even if it was like best intentions or something that we had done before but at a different time, it can be like like the double jar of like, oh, he asked us to do something and now I'm like unsure and whatever else, yes, and so I think that that's just.
Speaker 1:But again, I think there's a level of like faithfulness to that too, though, of like, as you said, like the text dictates, like like man, man, this guy is literally bothering the disciples of Jesus with the thing that he needs, and so it probably was the truest thing you could do and at some level, was probably the most faithful thing to the text was to offer in a jarring way of like you know what about? Now? Everybody's like yeah, we haven't done the, we didn't do the slow song.
Speaker 2:Yet we were waiting for the slow song. When are you going to tell me to bow my head Lights?
Speaker 1:lights, cause, cause, even even in folks like, even in like the modern, postmodern church, where things like don't feel as, like you know, canonically liturgical, like, like, like you know some of these other like, like of, like, like faith or denomination or whatever. There still is like a certain pattern, like for chad and I always joke, like you know youth pastors will post online like, hey man, tell me about your order of service on a wednesday, and I'm like it typically is a game, three songs, sermons, small group announcements right like it's one of those like there is just there's only so many ways to stack the legos and so to do things a much differently like it, just because because people get used to or they know how to look for things in those, and so the surprise is often quite something and so damn, yeah.
Speaker 1:But that's where I kind of want to ask you a little bit because like, uh, so give us a little bit of bio, because you've been a youth ministry we're not saying ages or weights, we're not saying names, but you've been 20 years in youth ministry things, and so, man, tell us a little bit of how you ended up where you're at. But then also, I think, some of the big questions of how do you still stay excited about the thing that we get to do? I think that's something like where we want to land today.
Speaker 2:For sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I started out in ministry when I went to. I mean, I've been doing ministry for a while because my I grew up in a church that believed in training up and sending out kids and students who were called to ministry, and so shout out to great student pastors when I was growing up. I felt called to ministry when I was a sophomore in high school and so ever since that moment I've been given opportunities to. In fact, the other day I was talking to my mom and she was like I remember the first time that you ever spoke as a student and I was like, oh my golly, like I don't even remember that.
Speaker 1:That's awesome. She's like I still have the handout. Yeah, yeah, and she's my.
Speaker 2:She should, she should, yeah, yeah, shout out to moms, but yeah, so just that, like ever since then, I've had opportunities and the Lord's placed people in my life who have trusted me with those opportunities. And so when I was in college I, you know, did college ministry. Then when I went to seminary I started volunteering in students. So I was a high school boy small group leader as a part of our seminary track and loved every minute of it, and then that progressed to being a student ministry intern. Then that progressed to the high school pastor and then eventually the lead student pastor at that church and that church was in Southern Indiana. We were there a little over 10 years and so a little over a decade of experience there.
Speaker 1:I do love that you have like basically like two very solid decades at two different churches.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:Like just that, like I mean, you get longevity, or at least like you, favor it yeah.
Speaker 2:No, absolutely. And like I, ever since I started out in ministry and I think this honestly, like subconsciously too, goes back to watching my family and myself go through several student pastors throughout our six to seven years in students, because I have a brother who's three and a half years older than me and so, like when we were in between student pastors, my mom filled in a lot during those times and so we were just involved, we were there, we we loved it, yeah, but seeing that kind of turnover as a student made me, as now a student pastor, really believe in longevity.
Speaker 1:So, okay, thank you for that, because I feel like that is the story of a lot of youth ministers is either they had a great one, so they want to be one, or there was like a real like. Either there was a lot of in and out there was the carousel, or they had one that was not great, and so there is this almost like either I owe it as a debt because they had a that was not great, and so there is this almost like either I owe it as a debt because they had a good one they have to pay it back or I feel owed to like do right where there was done wrong, and so it makes so much sense that you were like, hey, man, I had a crazy carousel of youth leaders, and so I'm going to be the one that will be like steadfast.
Speaker 1:And so it's so good yeah.
Speaker 2:And all of ours, like the, the ones that I had growing up were all awesome, so I think for me it's a combination of both those things.
Speaker 1:It's some good ones, just not for, not for long duration. Yeah, yeah, yeah, um, and they all invested away.
Speaker 2:Yes, yeah, they all invested into my life, all in my family's life, all growing up, and so that was the cool thing was, even though there was turnover, they still like I could look back at every single one of them and tell you their name. I could tell you like moments that I had with them, and even today, as as the adult man that I am, I remember those things. And so, being in Indiana and then launching into Texas, that transition only happened because our church had decided to go a different direction, theologically.
Speaker 1:So it wasn't even like you were looking.
Speaker 2:It was like there were circumstances that changed that put you in a spot of like.
Speaker 1:Well, we kind of need to consider what's next.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, we loved where we were. We're not floating resumes.
Speaker 1:No, no, no, no.
Speaker 2:No, we loved where we were. We had, like, I mean, we loved the families again, we had longevity there. So, being there a little over 10 years, like we, we knew families. We were seeing students start to get married. We were, um, and we were like I don't think we were at the them having kids yet, but definitely getting married. I was being asked to do weddings for them, like that sweet season once you've been there a long time. Yeah, and we were not looking, but then we named their children jameson.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah, naming their children Jameson and their dogs Barker. Yeah, exactly, yes, yes.
Speaker 2:Um, so, but so that kind of forced our hand and so we started looking and that's how we got connected through my home church, we got connected through Prestonwood. Okay, um, and so we ended up applying and been there 11, 11 years. It'll be 10 next month.
Speaker 1:Okay, amazing yeah, second decade, second decade, yeah, yeah, so literally marking by decades.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, um, so, so, yeah, so we're starting that um next month, but it's been incredible, like that season of being invested and again now I'm back at the place where I am being asked to do weddings.
Speaker 2:And we do have former students who are having kids, and so running that gamut has been really cool. That's cool, and so the way I mean you asked the question or kind of wanted to talk about the way you stay like invested and excited, I think for me I've walked through that's been a very real thing to me over the past year, I would say, and the reason being is, I think when you're somewhere for so long and you're also in ministry for so long, you can very easily things become normal, and so the word I use for that is just be you become complacent. And when you approach a Wednesday night or we call RD now a freedom, freedom weekends, and then we do beach camp in the summer.
Speaker 1:Yeah, cause like how, how many, how many Wednesday midweeks in 20 plus years have?
Speaker 2:you done? Oh, I don't even know.
Speaker 1:Like in the, in the four digit column right, like it's one of those like I mean at some level. I mean you, when you do batting averages, you don't have to like round up, round down, like we, we like, but we've, we've literally had 334 good ones out of 700 or whatever. Yeah, absolutely yeah.
Speaker 2:And so it's just like you can very easily caught in the routine of it.
Speaker 1:And so you're just.
Speaker 2:You know, I know I show up at this time. I know this is what I'm going to do, Then afterwards I'm going to do this, and then after that I'm going to go over to our leader's house and watch survivor Cause that's what we do every Wednesday night.
Speaker 1:Still for 20 years. Yeah, no, literally I have seen every season every episode of survival.
Speaker 2:Hold on, we've got to stop Like, is thatvers? Everything.
Speaker 1:Somebody listening. This is like the most important moment for them. Yeah, absolutely, we're going to connect for a moment because this goes back for me.
Speaker 2:We used to watch when it first aired very first season episode one. We sat down as a family and watched it during dinner, Okay, and all of us were hooked.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And so from that moment on every, I don't even remember what night it was. I think it was back then, thursday night, I think it was Thursday, but we would sit down and eat dinner and watch Survivor together as a family, every single week. That's awesome and so then, when I went to college, I started doing it with college roommates, and so we would watch it every single night that it aired, and then just again progressing through seminary and then getting married. Mallory loved Survivor at the beginning.
Speaker 1:She doesn't watch it anymore, yeah so I'm like, do you?
Speaker 2:that was my first question to new people I met was do you like survivor?
Speaker 1:and they said no, I marked them off the list. Hey, some churches have small groups based on, you know, life phases. Stages, yes, uh, maybe. Maybe theological interest uh, here in jameson's household it's do you watch? Yeah, absolutely absolutely uh, what will this small group do together for an hour each week?
Speaker 1:oh, I think we know, yeah, um, and so like part of me, like it's that who's your favorite champion, like who, who's your champion of champions oh, that's tough because because I have to say this I'm an mtv, the challenge guy yeah, and we've got a lot in the challenge and the challenge households. We have a lot of strong feelings because they've been integrating more like big brother and survivor folks in. We typically for challenge watching folks are okay with most survivor people coming over. Yeah, the big brother folks are typically problematic because they offer nothing. They offer nothing because the survivor folks actually have done things yeah, or whatever actually have like physical prowess or whatever.
Speaker 1:But do you have like because like that's part of the challenge thing, it's a lot of the repeat people. Yeah, do you have like a favorite like season or champion? That's like, this is the one. I'd love to meet them. They seem awesome.
Speaker 2:Yeah, like, yeah so early on at the beginning my favorite was rupert okay rupert was just off the wall like hippie guy Um but one with the earth, yes, but. I just loved his demeanor and his personality. Um, then you fast forward, uh, to different seasons.
Speaker 2:Um, like Ozzie, is another big one for me because he was just a guy that when he first started out you were like this guy I don't know how he's going to do, cause he's kind of like I mean he not a whole bunch of muscle at the beginning, but he surprised you and he won a ton of challenges. And so I liked Ozzy Um recently. I'm not going to lie, I don't really have a fan.
Speaker 1:Nobody's really kind of cut the mustard.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I will say something very polarizing.
Speaker 1:Okay, ooh, because a couple of the survivor fans watching please please leave comments.
Speaker 2:Let us know You're going to. You're going to know what I'm talking about. Like two or three seasons ago, I don't, I think it was two or three ago there was this lady on there named Carolyn, okay, and she I mean like kind of wackadoo.
Speaker 1:Some strong feelings about Carolyn.
Speaker 2:Yes, yeah, but I loved her because what I really wanted to end up happening, she made it all the way to the end. Okay, if I remember right. Okay, so what I was hoping would happen is she would be sitting at the final tribal council.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And she had basically been putting on this front of being a crazy person the entire game and then at final tribal council she was going to flip it off and be normal and be like I just wrecked all of you. Yeah, and I was so hoping it was going to flip it off and be normal and be like I just wrecked all of you yeah and I was so hoping it was going to be that moment.
Speaker 2:It wasn't, but she became one of my favorite people because of just how off the wall just the game she played, or whatever. Yeah, yeah, because she was legitimately herself. Yeah, but little wackadoo, yeah, well because you've watched it enough.
Speaker 1:like there is that, like there is the game within the game, and I think that's one of those like that's why those shows can be so compelling, even with, like new people coming through is like there's certain things even in the way, the game within the game and the editor's game like that's always like on the challenge joke of like if somebody's getting a lot of interviews.
Speaker 1:Of like if somebody's getting a lot of interviews it's like, ah, he's going home tonight. Like hey, he's only got two episodes left, so we better get a little bit of screen time for him or whatever.
Speaker 2:And so yeah.
Speaker 1:Which relates in some ways student ministry can feel like a game within the game because there is the earnestness of like we want to form teenagers in the way of the gospel, the follow invitation of Jesus. We want to come alongside and equip and do. And yet also night three of camp kids are probably going to cry and if you're not careful you can become jaded too. I mean literally we sit around youth pastors' conference all the time Like we share cry night stories. We share, you know, d-now Freedom Weekend mishaps, because it was like seventh grade boys at a Freedom Weekend Somebody's breaking like that. We had ours a few weekends ago and like I, I joked in like our little, like leader tech circle that we almost hit a D now Yahtzee on the first night because we had a kid get sick, we had a toilet get clogged, we had a table get broken If we had sent a kid home we would have hit.
Speaker 2:We would have hit would have hit.
Speaker 1:You know, deuces wild. Yeah, absolutely, we were so close. We were so close I didn't, we didn't want to send a kid home, but it was just like it was like we got to the house we were staying at and like immediately kids like don't feel good because he had like snacks all day or whatever oh yeah, and then, of course, they were throwing a ball and like the table with the glass topper, just like toppled.
Speaker 1:And then at 1 am we heard the guys the toilet don't work because, again, like seventh grade boys, like having seven of them live in the same house, oh yeah, like these are the things that are going to happen. Like, if you do enough, you know, you know that middle school boys like this is going to happen. It's going to stink like ax.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Because there's just there's a little bit of like these are the things that happen. So, james, how do we in a silly way, but also a serious and spiritual way how do we not just start calling the shots of like, oh, that's about to happen, but stay earnest, or expectant I think that's what we're going to come back to again expectant that, like, something big is still planned for these teenagers? Yeah, so like before, we went off on that survivor tangent like I.
Speaker 2:it just becomes normal, like I was mentioning, like our freedom weekend our beach camp, like these are massive things that we do, where we get to see God move and work in so many different ways.
Speaker 2:But it was becoming in my heart and in my mind just normal and we do these things Again. I've been at Prestonwood almost 10 years, I've run these things nine years, and so I know when to start this, I know when to do this, I know like it's just second nature to me, and so with that can easily become this sense of complacency, because then it is on a schedule, not necessarily on a spiritual level, because I know like again, in February I start this or in March I start this, but it's taking the spiritual out of it, and so God really started working on my heart back in October, november of last year. So at Prestonwood we do something. Our senior pastor encourages us to have a word of the year, and that word of the year is something that we focus on the entire year. Now he does different levels. I've taken it and made a template, because that's just who I am, and so again part of the reason.
Speaker 1:We will know, like, when you think about something, you have like examined it from every edge. You, you are my researcher, actually the highest praise my researcher, investigator, like if, if Jameson has gone in on a topic, I trust your research, like implicitly, yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so, and so I started doing this and like laying stuff out, so uh, and then last year it was the first time I brought my son along in the process, okay, and so I had him. We developed a word of the year for him and we like, we didn't do a great different word.
Speaker 1:He has his own, okay, okay.
Speaker 2:Um, and so this year I start in, you know, october, november, praying about the next year year, and the thing that kept coming to mind through conversations, through God's word, through prayer times, through random friends mentioning things just off the wall, was the word expectancy. And so what I had decided in November was that was going to be my word, because I just felt my heart was distancing itself towards complacency and away from expectancy.
Speaker 1:Do you feel like those are like a little bit on a spectrum, like there's a little bit of like it kind of slides from one to the other, like those feel like the polar opposites of each other?
Speaker 2:I think so, in my opinion. Now, I know you could argue for every case that not being the way it is, but I think, when it comes to our roles in ministry, I think you can very easily place yourself on one or the other, because if you're operating out of complacency, you're just doing things on a schedule, and you're doing it because it's time, you're doing it because it's your job, whatever. When you're operating out of expectancy, you're doing it because you are expecting God to do some really cool stuff, and that dictates what you're doing and when you're doing it and how you're doing it. And so I then begin to lay out okay, well, what does this look like in my life? Like, how do I work on expectancy this year? And so, like one of the things that I try to do I'm not gonna say I've done it every time, but I try to within the first two hours of me waking up, I spend time with the Lord just praying about expectancy in general. Just, lord, give me an expectant heart.
Speaker 2:Today, let me be looking and expecting opportunities to not only share the gospel but just to love on people, to invest in our staff, to give wisdom to somebody Before our midweeks and now before anything we do like Freedom Weekend was a huge prayer on my life was God, I'm expecting you to move at freedom weekend, I'm expecting you to do something on Friday night and Saturday morning and Saturday night. And I that just changed my mindset, going into the event too, because when you're, when you're begging God to give you an expectancy, you then begin to live and operate out of that expectancy versus the complacency. So, again, in my opinion, complacency you got a checklist of things you're doing that day to get ready for freedom or to operate in freedom versus living out of yeah, you still have that checklist, but you're expecting God to move and work on all of those things. So you're cognitively looking and spiritually looking for those opportunities to do those things.
Speaker 1:Do you feel like that's where is it a little bit of. Is it the perspective or the mindset Like, is that the difference? Because the work is fundamentally the same, right, like you probably didn't do a whole lot of different things that you wouldn't do, but it was the approach to which you did it. Is that really what is the keyed up difference? For so many folks, like, it wasn't just about accomplishing the work or getting it done, but it was the, like, the eye in which we were looking to get it done yes, okay, yeah, because I think that that changes like.
Speaker 2:I'll give you an example um last year at beach camp I had decided I just read um unreasonable hospitality yeah, by will. I can't ever say his last name guilladera or something. Yeah, yeah, sorry will, if yeah, yeah sorry if you haven't read it, though you need to read it. It's an incredible book.
Speaker 2:Yeah, um, and so one of the things that he talks about in there is that when they were running 11 park, madison or what is it 11, 11 park yes, yeah, yeah um, they had the created this position of a dream weaver, and the whole idea of this role at their restaurant was to figure out ways to take their service above and beyond for each individual person who had a reservation. Yeah, and he tells so many stories in the book about that, and so I had just read it and I was like I want to do this at beach camp. I want to walk through beach camp looking for opportunities and ways to take the experience for our volunteers to the next level. And so, for instance, one day we were on I think we were the early group of us were already at beach camp setting everything up and, um, one of the just just sweat and do it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, mean like yeah, we're moving boxes.
Speaker 1:We had three Sam's Club orders. You say beach camp, but I mean again, we all have been to camp. There's a lot of logistical just like move this from here to there.
Speaker 2:That is camp.
Speaker 1:Maybe the beach is in the background, but the work is.
Speaker 2:Oh, we tell people on our service team you're going to come to beach camp, but you may never set foot on the beach. Like that's how it goes.
Speaker 1:It's out there. It's not for you, but it's out there. You can smell it. But that's about as close as you'll get.
Speaker 2:Um, but on the way down on the buses we had a leader who texted um me and said hey, you know we were talking about something. And they said oh, you know.
Speaker 1:I'm so excited that.
Speaker 2:I get was like oh, it's like Wednesday.
Speaker 2:And I was like okay, great. So that Wednesday morning all of our groups they do family group time, and so they were actually in another condo meeting and then also they all have to go out to the beach during free time. So I went to the grocery store that morning and got a whole bunch of birthday stuff a cake, decorations, balloons and then I had one of our female staff members go to that condo during free time and set it up like a birthday party. And so when they came up from free time they walked into this birthday party in a room, completely unexpected, completely unknown, and to this day she still mentions that to me and so it's just like that is a clear, I think, example of what I'm talking about, because you're living out of an expectancy to see some really cool things versus. She could have said that and me be like oh cool.
Speaker 1:Happy birthday on Wednesday. What a coincidence. Yeah, yeah, great.
Speaker 2:But I didn't have to do anything. But it's that framework of your perspective and your mind that you were looking at those things with.
Speaker 1:Well, there was enough bandwidth or margin that you were able to listen and consider. And I think that is one of the things, because that's the question I do want to hear is if it is a little bit of like these polar opposites, when do you start to feel the drift? Because that is one of those, I think for folks with an expectant heart or a willingness to be surprised, or with, again, the eye perspective they're like looking and listening. For I mean this, this is a little bit the leadership advice of like why you should always walk slowly. If you walk too fast, then you won't be able to hear. Like the actual conversation it'll be about what you're doing, not about what's happening. Um, but yeah, it's because it the cake and the decorations were not the complicated part, like you could have done that.
Speaker 1:Either way. The actual sauce in the whole thing is that you caught wind of, got the text, saw overheard and pieced it together like because even if someone was like, oh, we need to do this for her birthday, yes, but the real credit goes to whoever like caught the wind of, like this is, this is the thing, and I think that is something. Um sure, a big event, a camp or whatever we, we, we typically would be pretty excited for those, but that mindset that even on a random Wednesday of a thing or the smallest part of the bigger weekend may be the thing, so that's good man.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Tell us a little bit, though, before you drift into complacency. Like before the bottom falls out or the wheels fall off. Like what are some of the things that you notice? Like we always teach Chad that when he's stressed, his car is dirty or whatever. Like when his, when his front seat's got stuff in it. Like if he's like, oh, I've got to pay, whatever. Like it's like, hey man, you doing okay. Like, like what, what? What is it for you Cause? Like, definitely, I think. Like we see the reward of it. But on a like a doldrums of a like November Wednesday. Like I mean, you're praying at November. Like how are the like when it's not leaning towards the willingness to be expectant or surprised what's happening?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think one of the biggest things for me is I disengage from the moment and I solely focus on tasks, and so what that looks like, like, for instance, at a midweek. For us, on a Wednesday night, that means that I am more focused on putting away our check-in stations, helping our team clean up afterwards.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Um, and the things that do not involve people, or like volunteers or students, yeah, it's those things. When I start hyper-focusing on those, that is a good indicator for me that I'm operating out of complacency versus expectancy. Yeah and so, and that's one of the first things.
Speaker 1:The task won't surprise you. The people might yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah. That's one of the things that was a good key to me when I started seeing it in my heart, like, I felt it, like it was that heart leaning. Now, like, and again, all of this time I'm like I'm walking with the Lord, like it's not that I wasn't having a daily quiet time, it wasn't that I was disengaging from my personal walk with the Lord.
Speaker 2:I was still very much involved in that, but it was just on the ministry side of things. It was becoming something that was routine and commonplace that I'm going to do all these things disengage from what God's doing in the room, to where now I try to be as much as I can. Yes, I have responsibilities to do, things like put away the check-in stations and things like that I'm going to help. But now I'm in the room experiencing worship. I'm in there during the invitation, I'm watching for students to make decisions. I'm like praying expectantly during that time and before that that God's going to do something. Cause I think before I would think man, god's going to work whether I'm in there or not, and he's going to be present whether I'm in there or not, so it doesn't matter if I am or not because he's got that. And then it becomes again not that God's going to move because I'm in the room, because that's silly.
Speaker 1:But you don't want to miss it. I think that's the you're like I want to be in what if something happens?
Speaker 2:Yeah, and expecting something to happen. It's also the mindset that I want to be in the room when it happens. Yeah, because I know it's going to happen.
Speaker 1:I have.
Speaker 2:I've prayed about it, like God obviously wants to change hearts all the time. He's working all the time, and so I want to be in there and not miss that moment when that one student, or the five students, or how many ever move from death to life, cause that's a big deal. Yeah, we always talk about how, like that's a huge deal and someone accepting Christ and surrendering their life to him, but I think sometimes, when we get in complacency, our actions say the opposite.
Speaker 1:No, so keep preaching, because that is something that I just—my heart worries for some youth ministry friends that often find ways to step out during the song part.
Speaker 1:I've heard these like the band's got it, I'm gonna take care of this, and it's just like, even at like conference stuff and I get it. We have some phone calls and sometimes it's nice to be away or to handle this or whatever, but like just a willingness to to be engaged, to be in it, to be willing to be engaged, to be in it, to be willing to be surprised, cause, man, like it is really easy to just write off. Well, this, this is what it is, this is what happens, and I just my worry is that complacency is two steps removed from disassociation, um, to ultimately some kind of despair. Right, like it's one of the ah, it's just the work I do. It becomes a flatly job-based thing and not this like, and, yeah, passion ebbs and flows.
Speaker 1:But, man, like the thing that we get to do, like, right, like, how many times does it break your heart to know that? Like the guy would stand up and preach like this, you know, moving from death to life but he missed the entire like song service. Yeah, yeah, like he'll get when it's his turn to talk. He's gonna talk big and then like he totally bailed on.
Speaker 1:Like you know, after the invitation he just went to the back of the room or went outside and texted somebody or whatever, and and so I just can't miss that stuff. So what would the wisdom be? So 20 years plus of ministry stuff? We have a lot of folks that are new-ish to ministry. New to ministry. What are the things that you encourage to pad them in now so it doesn't take hold later? How do we guard against it?
Speaker 2:I would say a couple of different things. One, I think, having the self-awareness to know when you're, when you're moving and shifting that direction. Um, for me, notice where you're at in the room. Yes, yeah, Notice things about yourself. Um cause, like people who are listening, they may have a different um they. Their definition of what they do when they feel themselves moving towards complacency might be different than mine. It might not be not being in the room at certain moments.
Speaker 1:It might be they may be in the room, but on your phone the whole time. Exactly yeah, yeah, like no, I was there the whole time, I just you know looking down.
Speaker 2:Yes, yeah, so I think, a self-awareness of knowing when you're moving that way. But I think, with that, I think it's good to have people who you surround yourself with, who know you well enough to know when you're doing that. My word of the year two years ago was assertive Okay, and I brought my admin assistant in on that because she sees me in that world all the time and I said and she's an Enneagram eight, so she like just she will say anything Naturally assertive yeah.
Speaker 2:And so there were so many conversations that we would have that she would look at me and say, but would assertive Jameson do that, or what would assertive Jameson do?
Speaker 2:And it was just that accountability that was built in to my ministry life that kept me pushing to fix that and to be more assertive, and so that was key. So I think even like for me also, um, having a spouse that does that, like my wife would do that too. Uh, she would be like, well, is that what you would do if you were being assertive? And I would have to then think and be like, no, I would actually do this. And she'd be like well, then, that's what you need to do. And so bringing people in again, it doesn't have to be your spouse, but it doesn't have to be your admin assistant, but somebody close to you that knows you well enough, yeah, and that you have a safe space where they can speak into it without you getting super defensive or upset that they said something or whatever. Like you have to trust them enough to allow them in to be able to speak.
Speaker 1:To note, to notice the changes.
Speaker 2:Cause?
Speaker 1:I think that is something that again, that complacency that can spiral even more so into a certain kind of like isolation or despair, is that you just didn't let anybody else in to say the hard thing to you Either you didn't have the person because you didn't identify them, or you were guarded against anybody that would be that person. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Okay, because I think the eventual spiral is burnout.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you're just done.
Speaker 2:Like that's where you get, is you just? You have no joy, you have no desire. It's almost like you've lost your calling.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And you probably haven't lost your calling.
Speaker 1:You've just lost your way with how you do your job Well. That's why I think so many folks and I've seen it recently in a few friends that have taken on new roles at new places it's almost like a breath of fresh air because they have to be dependent again.
Speaker 1:I think that the dependency and despair like that is there's got to be a way to stay fresh to the work without having to change your role. I think that's one of the things about calling that concerns me the most is that I would hope that your calling would span decades and that maybe inside of that, we could be at certain locations, contexts or roles for multiple years and then we didn't have to like jump into something. We didn't have to jump into something else new, not because we didn't feel called to it, but because, like that was the way to like kick the tires on. Like you know well, man, when I'm new here, I actually like I don't know anybody in the room, so I actually have to like meet people instead of like I know all these kids. It's like.
Speaker 1:I know all these kids.
Speaker 2:It's like well, get to know them deeper, like don't just. Yeah, absolutely I think. A third thing I would say if I can say one more thing is that I found helpful is surround yourself with younger people in ministry who have not experienced all this.
Speaker 1:Oh, keep them fresh. Do you keep their freshness? You're fresh.
Speaker 2:Like. One of the things that we have is like we have like putting the carrots together. Like, yeah, we have year-round interns, but then we also have summer interns. Okay, and so to see summer interns come in and experience a summer with us for the very first time.
Speaker 1:Oh, yeah, yeah is I mean that keeps you excited they're actually crying and you're like I knew it, but you're like, oh god, I feel so good.
Speaker 2:Yes, yeah yeah, because they'll be like oh my gosh, did you know that this and this and this and this? And I'm like, yeah, I've done that for nine years, but then it triggers in my mind.
Speaker 1:The way you felt.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but then I remember the way I felt the first year.
Speaker 1:I did that at.
Speaker 2:Prestonwood or at my previous church or wherever it brings back that, I'll use the word innocence. That's probably not the right word, but like the innocence in ministry where you've not experienced hey man.
Speaker 1:innocence is devs, shrewd as snakes. They're both biblical, oh good. Well, my friend, thank you so much for hanging out today sharing with us.
Speaker 1:Again, this is one of those seasons of life in ministry there's so much that could be done. It is our hope and encouragement that, as you listen to this, that you stay encouraged for the way in which the work impacts you. I think there's a lot of ways in which we can do ministry, but ministry always takes a toll on the minister and we hope that your heart is aligned and that you are hopeful and expectant this season. Jameson, if folks want to stay connected with you, where do they find you? How do they follow up? How do they learn more?
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, the easiest thing is, I mean I'm on social media. I deleted all the apps off my phone, so it's a little bit harder for me to see them On a 48-hour cycle. Yeah, yeah, yeah so you can message me on Instagram or Facebook, either one. I do check it regularly, but just it's not on my phone. I'll get notifications.
Speaker 1:I love checking a Facebook message or like an email I like that I like that approach.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's just another inbox.
Speaker 1:It doesn't get my lion's share of time. It's just another inbox.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, and so that's the best way. Otherwise you can Google Jameson Barker, preston Wood and my email is on there Are there a lot of Jameson Barkers no.
Speaker 1:Are you one of one of one. I don't know if I'm one of one Like one of one of seven. Yeah, there's not many Okay.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so would love to. If you have any questions, or would even just love to chat about something maybe you find yourself in the same space where I was back a year ago would love to have a conversation and just kind of walk you through some things that I would encourage you with. I always love being a resource. That's why I love partnering with you guys and always want to be available.
Speaker 1:So, man, you make so many of us better for the ways in which you keep us mindful, thoughtful and encouraged. So, uh, thanks everybody. Uh, we'll see you back next week. Hey, thanks for listening to this episode of the Youth Ministry Booster podcast. If you want to learn more about teaching and preaching and some of the things that Jamison shared, you can check out the links below for youthministryboostercom and also the Experience. Join us as we hang out in Nashville this May and every May talking about how we can preach, teach and communicate to students even better. Thanks for listening and we'll see you back next week.
