Youth Ministry Booster
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Youth Ministry Booster
Tradition, Transformation, and Timeless Youth Ministry Wisdom
Picture this: a repaired wise man figurine named King Christmas, hidden for joyous family fun and stories of Christmas Eve steak dinners at Longhorn. These are just a few of the festive gems shared by our guests Chris Trent, Matt Flanagan, and Todd Sanders on the Youth Industry Booster podcast. As we unwrap their cherished holiday traditions, we also explore how these customs evolve, especially with life's changes like welcoming new family members. This episode is rich with heartwarming tales that celebrate the adaptability and joy of family traditions during the holiday season.
Turning the spotlight from holiday cheer to divine callings, we dive into the inspiring journeys that led Zach, Matt, Todd, and Chris into ministry. Imagine being placed in a ministry role at just 19, or discovering your life's work through a chance introduction to church. These stories reveal the unexpected paths and profound joy that come with aligning one's personal and spiritual identities. It's a testament to the transformative power of faith and the importance of understanding one's calling in ministry work.
Balancing ministry and personal life is no small feat, and our conversation offers insights for sustaining both personal and professional growth. From the critical role of mentorship to the art of juggling family and ministry responsibilities, we emphasize the need for lifelong learning and maintaining strong relationships. We also examine the challenges of different life stages and the importance of embracing change to stay relevant. This episode is a treasure trove of wisdom for anyone navigating the rewarding yet demanding world of youth ministry.
Hey everybody, welcome back to another episode of the Youth Industry Booster podcast. Hanging out in the much upgraded garage, I had some friends today on the podcast compiling years and years, decades of wisdom, and so big shout out to my friends here. So around the horn Chris Trent, next-gen catalyst for Georgia, my brother Matt Flanagan, who is the children and students consultant for Kentucky, and then Todd Sanders, friend of the podcast, falls Creek program director and church partner. Did we get everybody square? That's right.
Speaker 4:Well done.
Speaker 2:Okay, more than youth ministry fellas, it's that time of year again and I know that for some of you it's an important holiday season. How do your families celebrate Christmas Like? The most pressing question that I have to ask today is what are the holiday traditions for the Trent, flanagan and Sanders family Like right now? Like the working household is set decorated Karen's reading by the fire and the boys are sneak peeking in their presence.
Speaker 3:Uh, what do y'all do? What do y'all do for christmas? That's good, uh. So we have, uh, my wife angela. She likes to give gifts early, oh, and so we have a steady stream my favorite person, yeah, so we have a steady stream of our children. It's another word you're not getting anything we haven't got it yet If you can get on the list, it's not a bad deal but, our children are trying to find ways to convince her to actually give the gifts early. So I'm sure as grandkids get older that will only increase.
Speaker 2:And so that's.
Speaker 3:You know, that has kind of become a tradition.
Speaker 2:So at your house Christmas doesn't come but whenever Mama Angela's around, yeah, whenever Angela wants it to happen.
Speaker 3:Christmas kind of comes so good. It's become a tradition. We also have a little broken wise man from an old nativity set. I call him King Christmas. I've glued him back together and I hide King Christmas oh he's a fighting one, yeah, I hide him, and if you find him, you get a gift.
Speaker 2:Amazing Okay.
Speaker 3:No, I love it. It's usually an underwhelming gift, an underwhelming gift.
Speaker 2:Does King Christmas have an extraordinary hiding place? He's never been found.
Speaker 3:No, like he put it somewhere and you forgot. No, he's gone months before that he's been found?
Speaker 4:Does he do mischievous things in the house?
Speaker 2:No, it's not Elf on the Shelf, we don't do that, but he's like King mean. Epiphany is a few weeks after. It's perfect.
Speaker 1:King Christmas. What do the Flanagans do, zach, we are learning new traditions. I've got, for the first year, a daughter-in-law.
Speaker 4:Oh that's good so we are excited for new things.
Speaker 2:This just became a family show. That's exactly right.
Speaker 1:So we always previously, where we traveled, we traveled and did other things with greater extended families, my immediate family. On Christmas Eve, after our worship service at our local church, we would come home and do homemade pizzas, kind of make your own dough lay it out. Everybody does their own toppings and have a time of gift sharing and just sharing together as a family on Christmas Eve night, and so we're trying to establish some new territory. We want everybody together at our place Pizza night at the Flanagan's.
Speaker 1:That's right, that's right, and so we're trying to figure out what it might look like in the future with you know, just kind of sharing time with other families, but super excited for just the traditions we've had there and looking forward to some new exciting ones to come.
Speaker 2:That in-law thing that will, that will turn a Christmas day into a Christmas season.
Speaker 3:It does.
Speaker 2:There is some December 26th and 7th Christmas gifts to be open for sure.
Speaker 1:So my oldest son and his new bride. We counted the other day that they feel like they have six gatherings for Christmas to be scheduled, and so we challenged them to make a documentary out of it and maybe, perhaps, a short movie.
Speaker 2:Each one's an episode. That's it. That's exactly episode. That's it. You know what I mean. If Hallmark's still looking for scripts and we know that they are there you go. There's six more movies.
Speaker 1:Six Christmases and the in-laws right.
Speaker 3:Six Christmases with the in-laws Perfect.
Speaker 4:That's perfect, Trent. What do y'all do? Wendy and I are a lot like Matt in the Flanigans. We are kind of dealing with that empty nest stage of.
Speaker 3:Free to be here, our son and daughter-in-law who work down at Disney.
Speaker 4:They're probably not going to get to come home, but Christmas Eve is still a big deal for us. We go to church together Christmas Eve, then we head to Longhorn and grab a steak at Longhorn.
Speaker 3:That's kind of a big thing.
Speaker 4:And then wake up Christmas Day, and I don't know how we got started on this, but we always watch the Greatest Showman on Christmas Day.
Speaker 2:I'm not sure how Christmas Day, I'm not sure how Greatest story ever told, greatest showman ever made it just connects somehow. Christmas is a circus. It's a fun time. We're looking forward to it. I love this time of year Stakes on Christmas Eve. Little Parmesan crust on top. You know what I'm talking about. Our family does the quick trip pizza we have late night Christmas Eve service Not a lot open.
Speaker 2:It's not quite longhorn, but yeah Well sometimes things start as an accident, I think. Sometimes we talk about traditions in the church and it always feels like this high holy thing. Sometimes you just stumble into it where you were like, oh no, it's nine o'clock on Christmas Eve. Our kids are hungry. What do we do? Fast food, pizza and then you do that three years in a row and you're like we're looking forward to our fast food pizza.
Speaker 4:Oh yeah, and one day your kids will be off at college and they'll be like I'm missing it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, like when I think of dad, I think of fast food, pizza and it's just like, wow, that's.
Speaker 2:We're hoping for a little more, but all right, it's good, it's good. One of the things I wanted to reflect on with having y'all here is just the breadth and the wisdom of longevity and consistency and always asking, especially at this time of the year, what really matters most. The Christmas season is a keen reminder that there are more things to do than can be done and to cut through with, like, what is the priority? The clarity of what we need to do, and so I just want to ask you guys, like man, why y'all still do it. I mean, there are like so many things that you have done, could do, but y'all represent like a consistent decades long investment in student ministry. So, like, what keeps that candle burning? What keeps that fire going for y'all?
Speaker 1:Zach, let me jump in and say we appreciate you not asking our age.
Speaker 1:We never do that, that's not polite, I think, first and foremost, again, we haven't shared this amongst one another. But we would start with our call. This is what the Lord has called us to do, and he's called us to set our life apart for ministry, and he's given us a specific call to invest in teenagers and families and to reach and disciple them. And so it begins there, right, that the Lord has called us to. He didn't call us to necessarily something easy. He called us to something incredibly significant.
Speaker 2:When did that call start for you, matt? So I always love this is my favorite story to ask.
Speaker 1:So I'm glad you asked. I was hoping to work this in. So I was 19 years old. I grew up in a ministry family, knew the Lord at a young age and certainly, like so many other teenagers, did dumb stuff, but by and large my life was I knew the Lord and wanted to live for Him. And so I went to college. Didn't really feel a call to ministry, but as a 19-year-old first semester sophomore student, there was a church approach me about coming out and doing what. They said some things with their students and my rationale was well, I'm going to be in church someplace and they offered this incredible check of $50 a week.
Speaker 1:And so I thought you know I'm going to really be bringing home some big money. And so I said, sure, I'm happy to do that, but they didn't really want me to start right away, which I thought was odd. And then they wanted me to meet with this group of people, which again felt weird. And they said that's great, but don't come until this Sunday. And I said, well, where do I go next Sunday? And they said, well, go find someplace to go. And I thought this was a really weird start to a church. But again, I'm just coming to be an encouragement to their students. So I come out on a Sunday morning, a small rural country church and I walk in, someone that I've never seen before hands me a bulletin and I go, sit down and I begin to kind of thumb through the bulletin and I find my name in it and it says Dash Youth Minister. And so, as a young 19-year-old not studying ministry, approached by a church, how did I get started in ministry? Well, the Lord called me to it, but I didn't know it.
Speaker 1:And I just found myself at a church that was anticipating I was coming to be their part-time student minister and begin to learn and grow from that point.
Speaker 2:That's a certain version of hospitality they knew.
Speaker 1:I was coming and certainly laid out the red carpet, but I did that for multiple years as a student, working bivocationally as a student minister during those young adult years.
Speaker 4:What's crazy is, when he got to Kentucky, the same thing happened. He just showed up and all of a sudden he was on a boat.
Speaker 1:He was there. Is this my office? Am I ready?
Speaker 2:It's a very specific type of revelation. Yes, yes, yes, todd, what about for you?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I surrendered to ministry shortly after I was saved. I was 15, 16 years old, so I was saved as a sophomore in high school. Didn't grow up in church so I was invited to church by a friend named Eddie, and Eddie invited me to come to VBS and Sunday school and through that experience from fifth grade to my sophomore year, came to faith in Christ and shortly after that just felt like the Lord was calling me to something. Didn't know what that meant At the time. There were a couple of options on the table. It was pastoring I wasn't really sure that that was the thing. It was going on the mission field or being a music minister. I think those were kind of the three options.
Speaker 3:And so it was kind of sorted through that. Ended up, the Lord reminded me of that calling at the end of my time in my undergraduate work and then was yeah, so just jumped in into a part-time interim role and then a more full-time interim role and then full-time position after that. So that full-time interim serving several months at a church it was Angelus Home Church the Lord affirmed, confirmed His calling in me, and so then it was just a matter of stepping into opportunities, and so that's been a big part of my calling. Experience has been just stepping into the opportunities that are in front of you, being faithful in that and then the lord using you beyond that.
Speaker 2:So what were some of the things about those early opportunities that felt you said confirming and? Affirming like there, there's work to do. There's things like what were the confirming bits, though?
Speaker 3:I think a big part of that was the work. The nature of the work just really fit with who I was, who we were as a couple. We started in ministry full-time after we got married, our last year at Oklahoma State go Pokes. So we, we started in there. So the nature of the work too, but also just the creative processes and the things that I got to work on and the way that I got to work in those things were just things that the Lord, even looking back as a student sitting in the church, things that I would notice and things that I would kind of churn on yeah, sitting in the pew as a student in high school, in middle school, high school, those are the things that I've now got to kind of work on and do. So that was the nature of the work and then the outlets that the work gave me and then people, obviously at the heart of ministry.
Speaker 4:But yeah.
Speaker 3:I would think those are some of the things.
Speaker 4:Chris? What about for you? Yeah, man. So it's interesting. Our stories are kind of similar. I didn't grow up in church, I grew up in a trailer and it's a double Y.
Speaker 2:Not trying to brag, but you know, and Front door back door.
Speaker 4:Yeah, yeah, you know, I remember when they brought my house down the road.
Speaker 4:Anyway. But, man, at the end of my junior year of high school, my parents divorced when I was in middle school and so, like you know, like a lot of folks have gone through that, definitely searching, trying to fill that hole, you know, tried a bunch of different stuff, you know. And into my junior year of high school, a youth pastor invited me to youth camp. I didn't know what that was. I went to centrifuge at Ridgecrest, north Carolina, and understood that week for the first time what it meant to actually follow Jesus and trust in Christ. And man, just one morning, just there in my bunk bed, prayed to receive Christ and beautiful moment, and as far as calling goes, the youth pastor, jim, made such an impact, it had literally changed my life. And so I just looked at him. I was like I don't fully understand what you do, but I want to do what you do.
Speaker 2:So say more about that, because I want to ask all of you guys, like the quality of the character of the people early in the ministry journey? Sure, because, again, I think sometimes we don't know what they do until we do what they did, and yet it's because of who they were. So what about Jim? I mean like, well, I invite you to camp.
Speaker 4:Yeah, you know earlier about how does this all lead to longevity, right, I think it starts with the fact that I would say I'm a product of mentoring, and it started with Jim Emanuel. Okay, you know when, jim?
Speaker 3:once I received.
Speaker 4:Christ.
Speaker 2:Mentoring has a name, and his name is Jim no-transcript, you know.
Speaker 4:So I mean all of that played into creating that foundation, along with the fact that I mean, because I was such a lost teenager, you know, the fact that Jesus saved me during, you know, later in my teenage years, just the fact that I get to still do youth ministry all these years later into my fifties. Now I really wouldn't. I'm thankful because I really wouldn't want to do anything else. You know, like I just it's calling yes, Matt, I a hundred percent agree, but I don't want to do anything else. Like I just love this. I love seeing teenagers' lives changed by the gospel, you know.
Speaker 3:I think yeah, I appreciate you saying that and I think the carry over for me on that and thinking through calling.
Speaker 3:But then the why follows.
Speaker 3:I think if you have a strong lock on the why, then that will push you into longevity because you're not gonna lose sight of the thing you're doing in the moments that you're doing the very practical thing or the very menial thing or what seems insignificant, but you realize all of those things are disciple-making moments and you're passing along a work ethic or you're passing along a vision to younger people, to students, for those who are coming up behind you, that they'll carry through on.
Speaker 3:I say that we all are where we are because someone was faithful to make disciples and so if we can remember the why is making disciples, then we will continually, year after year after year, we'll be reminded of that and not lose sight of the heart of what we're to do. And I think of whether it's Finus or Glenn or Barry, or a student from OBU who was part time that I can't remember his name, if it was Rick or Dan or Steve or John or Ron, all these Phil, all these guys that were investing in us throughout the years, whether in youth ministry or in collegiate ministry, and then so mine was maybe mentoring.
Speaker 3:We were formerly discipled, there was a model set, but I think it was just opportunity Every step of the way I was given model set, but I think it was just opportunity Every step of the way I was given opportunities. And so someone gave me a time slot, and so I think that that's so important and so benefit from the time slot today, just that someone would entrust me and give me that moment and that propels me in the work that I do today.
Speaker 2:And that's something again, a lot of our conversation for this conversation was making sure we had the right consideration and I think for so many in youth ministry that feel the burnout coming, it's because of something about the work lost sight of the worth or the why. Because it is toil, it is tilling, but if there is names and people attached to it, if there's opportunities that it creates for others, I think that's one of the things that, man, if you're in youth ministry right now and your plan doesn't have a list of names included with what you're working on, you're kind of missing out on what the whole thing was Like. Like it wasn't your goal to just run a D now, yeah, like like as we're coming up on winter season, like executing the weekend retreat was not the thing. Creating the opportunity for students to gather and adults to serve and lead, like that that actually was the thing. We just gave it a really cool like wintry brand or whatever, and so, okay, uh, questions, for you guys will not ask your age, but you have shared a little bit about maybe in this life season that that nest has been emptying.
Speaker 2:So that would suggest to some that maybe there have been years of balancing. I'm very careful, yeah, years of Years of balancing 19 to where you're at now, matt in particular of like maybe single married kids, now no kids, like how did how do y'all do it? Like how, how, looking back, I mean at the time you're like man, we just found a way retrospectively for folks that are in it, as my wife would say, sometimes you're just in it. We have a brother that just had a new baby and like they are like the first four weeks, so they're in it. But for those that are in it with little kids or new ministry role, retrospectively, how would you talk about the balance of personal and professional, the demands of church and life to be a good parent, a good partner? What would you say? What have you learned? What would you say? What would you, what would you offer?
Speaker 3:I think, for for me it's, it's remembering kind of the order of calling. You know, go back to Edmund Clowney, called to the ministry, like you're first called to Christ and we you hear this in a lot of places and it's not something that's new we're first called to Christ and then I think that beyond that, I think we're called into these relationships and so I think our family and even our deep friendships in these relationships supersede our calling to the ministry as a general thing, because you can not be in a ministry position, still be called to the ministry, but before that you are a family member.
Speaker 4:You're a believer who is?
Speaker 3:locked in in these relationships and so if you lose sight of the order of things and often we put context over everything and so we feel like our context is the thing that's driving and so if our context is rocked, then we feel rocked when it's really our ministry calling drives, I think, even our area before context. God's calling us to an area of ministry and then a specific context. Would you say more about the?
Speaker 2:context. Yeah, I think like a specific church or Like the idea of being rocked. What would the rocking be?
Speaker 3:So if we lose that position, if we lose our ministry, like we're, displaced or whatever the job changes like, then our identity is impacted or we're affected by that.
Speaker 3:So, really, though, sometimes all you have to grab hold of is the calling, but then, even in the absence of area or position, god's moving you, changing you. You're still called to the ministry, but, first and foremost, don't forget that you're called to family and friendships and those relationships after you're called to the ministry. But, first and foremost, don't forget that you're called to family and friendships and those relationships after you're called to the Lord. And so, I think, understanding the hierarchy and I like to say hierarchy, but it's the order of things I think that helps you balance and not lose sight of I'm not sure that every game, volleyball game or and this is not to say that those relational moments aren't important I'm just not sure that every game, and you making those every week, is worth what you, what you sacrifice your family for, and so that's that's a challenge.
Speaker 3:I think that we, we balance. So you have to say, well, first let me make sure my family is taken care of, and then let's do that. Now, it's not an excuse to be lazy, we still do the work, but I just think that that helps keep things in order, and the longer I've gone, I think, the more I understand the importance of that order.
Speaker 2:And such a tuning to that too, of like I think sometimes we're making these hard cuts and I'm going to do this and not do this without any real grasp of like what our family needs we're listening to them or like what the ministry needs, we are struggling in isolation and we're deciding in isolation instead of actually like tuning ourself to like what your family is saying they need or what the ministry actually needs versus what you think or decide, and then we take on things like a digital world too, and it's like not only am I going to, I'm going to do this event, I'm going to make all these games, so I can check it off my list.
Speaker 3:So I look good to a certain group of people who, in the end, when it comes down to it, will walk away from you and you're still left with what you did or didn't do with your family.
Speaker 2:Well, it's the length of the relationships, right? Yeah, like, even your most committed student is at best six, seven years. So I'm going to make this post right.
Speaker 3:I've got to spend time doing this, and all the while neglecting what is closest to you.
Speaker 4:I think in that man, like I love the way you've nuanced that out a little bit, because one thing that I'm not a real big fan of is the oversimplification that we sometimes do of saying you know, hey, it's God, family calling Right.
Speaker 4:And you weren't rigid with it, you were more like it works together. You know, and I appreciate that, because I think it's important to remember that there is a calling. Yeah, it's important to remember that there is a calling. And I think, when you ask how does this all work, I think, man, like you, have to realize that there are going to be different seasons, like, and you're going to have to continue to learn in every season Like I'm having to learn what it means to be the dad of an adult kid that's married.
Speaker 4:I've never had to do that before. That's a whole brand new thing.
Speaker 2:So we have an extra calendar to juggle, yeah. So when?
Speaker 4:you're a youth pastor and your wife all of a sudden has toddlers, that's going to impact what all of that ministry world looks like for you. Whenever they're children, it's going to impact it there. When they're teenagers in your youth group, it's going to impact. So all of that kind of has to work together.
Speaker 2:It's not an easy tiered system of like this bucket, that bucket, it's tiered.
Speaker 4:I think that's what's complicated to me about it, like, not complicated, but I think it's man you have to make sure you recognize. Yeah, at the end of the day it really is. You know my family's going to become, you know.
Speaker 2:When we do the balance sheet.
Speaker 4:yeah, Realistically, I think there are times where ministry comes before family at times, but it's allowing that to become something that happens all the time, that I think you start to get up and a little bit of that for us at least and I'm not saying this has to be like this for everybody, but I think what's helped us is we've always taken approach, an approach that not only am I called a ministry but Wendy's also called a ministry. I didn't mean that she's called to get up on stage and do a silly game, but my kids at least while they're under my house, they're a part of that calling as well.
Speaker 4:They're part of the thing, and so with that we do this together and it helps understand. Yeah, there are moments where I may be off doing ministry, but there are also moments where I get to do things that I normally wouldn't like a normal dad wouldn't get to do, because I have a little bit of flexibility in my schedule, that's right.
Speaker 4:That's right, you know, and so I think being able to work all those things together, recognize the different seasons, yeah, I think that helps a lot, and some of that only happens when you've done it long enough, and I think that's one of the it's hard to see all the seasons inside one year, right, Like if you're in winter and it's your first winter, you're like when will this?
Speaker 1:ever end, or whatever.
Speaker 2:It's like well man, it's hard, but it will be better.
Speaker 1:Zach, I would just add on to that we want to value what those seasons are. So, I have conversations with church search teams all the time looking to fill their positions and in many times they have a typecast of what they're looking to hire. That involves age and they're looking for someone who is young and can be, in their words, relational and with our teenagers, and certainly we all, and that they can pay less. And they can perhaps. That as well. We all probably if we started ministry early.
Speaker 2:$50 a week. Right, that's still acceptable. Right, yeah, just put their name in the bulletin. We pay.
Speaker 3:Matt, then we'll pay him now.
Speaker 1:Just put their name in the bulletin and pay 50 bucks a week. The reality is, if we started early in ministry, we probably all had those days where we were single and we were studying and the call to ministry was new and exciting and we had freedom in our life. That became a blessing to the families and churches that we served. But our growth and maturity far blessed our churches even more, and I would say this is that when you're perhaps if you're listening and you're young or perhaps newly married my oldest son is a student pastor and he and his wife in their first year of marriage they are available in ways that I'm not anymore, but I believe the Lord has given me the blessing of growth and wisdom and life experience that I'm able to speak into families in ways that he does not, and so I think that we learn to recognize and value what those seasons of ministry might be, and there's not one that trumps the other, it's just the recognition of where we are in our journey of faithfully serving the Lord. And so my encouragement to churches, when they're asking these questions and looking to fill these positions, is to recognize whoever it is you're going to call is going to have strength because of the season that they're living in and to recognize and know what those things are.
Speaker 1:If a church were to call me and I were walking new as a whatever the age, is Zach, a student pastor? Perhaps there's some things that you know. In terms of the number of volleyball matches I can be at during the midweek might be different than what I could once do, but my ability to speak to mom and dad about how to raise a young person in the Lord and keep them faithfully involved in church is going to be drastically different. And that comes because I've had these different seasons of life, and so I want to just encourage both the church and the leader.
Speaker 1:Right is that there's value in these seasons, when your kids are going through kind of little league sports and you're able to meet connections in the community through those activities, that there's going to be a season. You can't do that in the same way. I remember so distinctly there was a group of young people that were just a year or two older than my oldest as they were coming up through our student ministry and all of a sudden they began referring to me in different ways. Students always had, I'd always simply just been Matt, but now sometimes I was hearing things like Mr Flanagan or I'd coach some of them.
Speaker 4:Or something like that.
Speaker 1:And so it was this. They saw me differently because I was just as much my oldest son's dad as I was a student pastor, and that was a beautiful thing as well. And so it wasn't as a no, no, pretend like I'm this or I'm not, and so embrace who God has given you at that moment and the way that you can share and recognize there's incredible value in your season of life and serving.
Speaker 4:And can I just make sure? We're hearing this part, what Matt is saying is it requires intentionality. It does.
Speaker 2:Like so in each season it's being intentional, recognizing those specific moments.
Speaker 4:Awareness of where you're at, I mean literally like again, if you're listening, man, if you could like take time with your spouse to have conversations about what is ministry going to be like now that we have a kid yeah, x age, whatever Right, and and be intentional, because I mean I remember the day, wendy, we had Dylan and we showed up to camp and I had not prepared where we put him. I've got two, three buses full of kids Plus I'm the camp director. Yeah, she's got her luggage, his luggage a pack and play diaper bag and all that stuff Plus.
Speaker 4:I've got to get all of our students to there and I was like, am I dad right now?
Speaker 3:Yeah or am I?
Speaker 4:student pastor right now, and that's it. There's a tension there and that's where the oversimplified you know God.
Speaker 2:Family church, whatever.
Speaker 4:That's where it has to be a little more nuanced. I'm going wait a second, because in that moment I had a job to do. So that's where I had to learn and be intentional with hey, wendy. I'm going to get.
Speaker 1:George.
Speaker 4:Jacobus to take your stuff. He's a senior. He's going to take your stuff to the room for you and make that switch.
Speaker 3:I think some of the balance comes from understanding there's a difference, I think, in devotion and activity. So if you over-devote to ministry over family then there's an issue.
Speaker 3:I think that then, when you look at prioritizing, there are those seasons and you with your spouse, or if you're single, you're going to understand that there are seasons where ministry demands more, the activity is more. I'm not more devoted, you're always dad, so in a moment you're never separated as dad, you just have. The priority of my job requires this of me. So I think that understanding, like devotion over activity.
Speaker 4:I like that. I've never thought about it like this. This is so good. Yeah, that's good Because that's where it becomes heart right. That's where you get intentionality and you have seen folks that have struggled in ministry when their heart shifts and it's kind of like clearly their heart is more for ministry than it is their family, and that's when there's a problem. Well, it goes back to the question of the context becomes the identity.
Speaker 2:I think that's the challenge of calling. Is a calling to ministry is regardless of where you're serving. And I think that's the distinction of like the calling isn't the church. I know that we sometimes feel like we're called to a church, but that calling is an identifier that supersedes any one job role position. It's good.
Speaker 3:I appreciate what Matt said, such wisdom, insight there, just as a help to young, younger or even more experienced I'm not going to say older, but more experienced leaders. Seasons pass quickly, so don't miss a season because you're focused overly focused on a job, because you can't get that back. That's right. Can you get the job back. You know probably Probably you can plan more next week, yeah, but don't miss those seasons, whatever that means in your situation, that's good.
Speaker 2:Third question for y'all, and this is the, so that's the personal balance question. I think part of what will cultivate a really healthy sense of being tuned to both family and work, or family and ministry, is our own personal devotion rhythm. What are some of the things that either you've learned the hard way or have held fast for you in growing as a ministry leader? Like as far as like specific, like practices or things, or you know time away or schedule of week, like what have been the things that are like? This anchors me, this strengthens me, this helps, gives me clarity. Like what are some of those things that maybe took you 20 years to get, that you could help someone who's 20 years old with?
Speaker 1:Let me jump in on that, zach.
Speaker 1:I think two things that come quickly to my mind is number one is to be a learner.
Speaker 1:Right, we may have a season of formal education, but we need to be a lifelong learner and recognize we not only learn from books, but we also learn from people, and I want to surround my life with people that I want to emulate certain things that they do, and it's my responsibility to craft that time with them. I'm not simply going to sit back and just hope that they invest in me, but if I'm watching that person and I want to do what they're going to do, I'm going to go, spend time and invest time with them. And so I want to be a learner, not only on the things that are being published, but also what I see in terms of key leaders and what they're doing. I want to take time to be outside of my own context so that I can see like sometimes I get tunnel vision, because if I'm focusing on what I need to be doing, I'm not recognizing the innovation that's happening around me. And so being a learner in that way.
Speaker 4:What's so crazy about it?
Speaker 2:I've never been told no If asked you I get, you'd be surprised. Yeah, right, right.
Speaker 4:Right, like nobody has ever told you know I will not take the time. Hey, will you invest in me and meet with me?
Speaker 2:Nobody has ever said to Matt Nah, not worth it. It's like hey.
Speaker 4:Everybody suggests a book, but you've got to be the one to ask yeah, that's right, it's on you, it's on you I think the other thing— I love that it's on the learner. Yes.
Speaker 2:The burden is on the learner, not a teacher. That's right, that's good.
Speaker 1:The passivity of sitting back and saying I'm not gaining this because no one has given me this, I think is taking the wrong—.
Speaker 2:Why is nobody teaching me Okay, buddy Right.
Speaker 1:Leadership says that we move even though it may be difficult, and so we need to recognize this is what that includes your pastor, by the way, right.
Speaker 4:We need to. I mean like your pastor, Like taking the time to. My pastor ever spent his time with me.
Speaker 3:That's right, that's exactly right.
Speaker 1:Taking the time to say hey, pastor, will you?
Speaker 4:pour into me. That's exactly right Come on, come on.
Speaker 1:And so we need to recognize and here's what I would say specifically about networking it's always, I think everybody always recognizes its importance, but it's never urgent. So, for example, if I'm sitting in my office and I'm prepping for to teach that night and the custodian says, comes in and says I need help moving chairs for this bereavement lunch right away, which one is more important, I think, like in the reality, our preparation to be a diligent teacher of God's word, we would say, is more important, but setting up the chairs for a lunch, that's happening in 20 minutes that's urgent, right, and so networking I think most of our ministry leaders understand it is important, but it's never more urgent than what's on my plate.
Speaker 1:So therefore it takes a great discipline and resolve to make that a part of your life, and so one of the roles that I try to serve in my state is to create these networks of people that intentionally and the best they can, guard that time with one another so that they are mutually edifying, strengthening, challenging one another in what it looks like to serve and lead in the local church. And I think it's that recognition because other things will always come up that feel more urgent, but this is going to be the lack of it will show its importance in your life as you move on.
Speaker 2:I mean here to say here is say with, like a heart of sincerity, don't skip those coffees and network meetings, don't miss those zoom calls to learn and collaborate, cause yeah, you could, you could save yourself an hour or have a morning off, but in that that is long-term benefit for those that you get.
Speaker 3:It's good man, it's good.
Speaker 4:Yeah so.
Speaker 2:Todd Chris, what about for you? What are some of the like key practices, things, rhythms, the stuff for you?
Speaker 3:uh, for me, I think learning, and this has takes some time, um, especially if you're driven and you enjoy the work you do, um, you, you're churning on those things, and it's life-giving to you, sure, um, I think I think your work can be life giving. I think, though, understanding the importance of time off to, to let your brain disconnect, let your, let your mind and your body follows, you know so. So time off, I think, the more more important as, as I've gotten older, not just you know, cause I can't do it, that's. That's not the issue. It's just a matter of understanding the, the, the mental thing that happens, uh, when you're able to disconnect and take the time that that you need.
Speaker 3:Um, it is not, uh to me, um, I think I had a professor in my master's work, and, and he was talking, we're addicted to, um, uh, stress in stress in our culture, and this was many years ago, and so I think you take that and even ramp that up today. So it's always like man, what's the answer? How's it going? Well, I'm super busy, like we're just constantly like oh, I'm just overworked man.
Speaker 3:Well, why, like I don't know if that's really necessarily one healthy Two, it's not spiritual or biblical that we wouldn't take the time that we're supposed to take to Sabbath. So time off, rest. I think those are important rhythms. Now I know some leaders and even more experienced leaders. You've been in a church for a short time or a long time. You might have leaders over you who press you in a different way. You might have leaders over you who press you in a different way. You have to learn to live within that and then ultimately learn is that context the thing that is beneficial for me and my family, for my health? And so is the payoff worth the investment? And so that's another, maybe another, podcast.
Speaker 3:But just looking at so time off, I think time to plan as well, because planning gives you margin off. I think time to plan as well because planning gives you margin. So, whether that's you know, zach, I know you know we've talked about this together and then I have heard you bang this drum a lot. Just, you know blocks of scheduling and how you organize your day. Booster has been a big part of you know, promoting, helping leaders understand that. So I think with that comes, like, the idea of like do I have an hour or two a week where I can plan? Do I have a day a month that I can set aside to really plan long term? And then am I willing to take, maybe every quarter, maybe once or twice a year, a couple of days where I'm retreating even if it's in my office, closing the door or whatever to get away and look long-term and set some things in motion. Because the further you can throw out there, it just helps you plan the work where it's not so much always a converging timeline, if that makes sense.
Speaker 2:Well, because it affects how you feel about it, but it also will slow you down enough to not allow yourself to overdo, because I think a lot of times we'll see empty space on the calendar and fill it with the activity, forgetting that the activity requires both the planning, the preparation and then the evaluation. There's like there's more to it than just like oh, I got a free Saturday, squeeze it in man.
Speaker 2:Like no, there's there's things that went into, like the on-ramp and off-ramp of it that only comes from a disciplined approach to like working on and ahead, and that that's one of those. It probably takes some mess ups before you get it right, but it is worth pursuing that in a way that you don't constantly just move from like thing to thing activity to activity. I think it actually will better set your devotion as well yeah, I so.
Speaker 3:So how we've all been at a place where and even me recently like what, why did I do do?
Speaker 2:all that, yeah, why did?
Speaker 3:I do this? Why am I in the middle of this? It's because I dipped myself, but, um, yeah, so just those, those two things, I think planning and then time off, um, have been things that have fed me I think the question was fed you personally, like that fed longevity in you, and so I mean those two things come to mind.
Speaker 1:A real quick comment here as well. Todd mentioned these two words. I thought they were so helpful. He talked about busyness and anxiety. Right, and oftentimes we use those almost as a validation of how important we are.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:When really probably what it indicates is a mismanagement of what we do. And so just so appreciated that comment. Yeah yeah, Busyness is not betterness.
Speaker 2:No, it's not Chris, what about for you?
Speaker 4:Yeah, you know, I'm loving this conversation so much because when you've got guys here that all value longevity, it's interesting to me how our values are so similar as we're hearing each other speak.
Speaker 2:You know and talk about God's shaving us into the same. Yeah, you know, and I would say what I'm about to say I don't mean this in any way.
Speaker 4:Jesus, you can leave the guys, because they would value this too, but I would. We've not talked about just that daily time with the Lord and that personal devotion.
Speaker 4:I just had a meeting with some, some guys that I'm blessed to, to meet with each week, virtually from all over Georgia, and we did a little Devo this this particular week, and one of the things I did it this week I don't typically do it, but one of the things I said to him was hey, just as a reminder about Christmas, this is for you also. Yeah, like the story of Christmas, the story of Jesus is for you Also. We have to remind ourselves, because we get in the busyness of doing ministry, the job of doing ministry, of pointing others, that sometimes it's easy for us to forget no, this is all for me.
Speaker 2:This starts with that personal relationship with Christ Gospel's good for you too, man yeah.
Speaker 4:And honestly, as simplistic as it sounds and I know somebody young might be hearing this and he's saying, oh, you got to have a quiet time but I mean honestly, it's that, having that daily devotional with the Lord, that time with the Lord, and I don't mean that completely legalistically, but do you have some type of strategy where you're not just using your Wednesday night message prep?
Speaker 4:for your devotional but rather you are spending time in the word prep for your devotional, but rather you are spending time in the word and I would even encourage you to circle back that you're also helping your spouse experience this during those younger years with kids as well, because it's not as easy for her. She wishes she could go to the bathroom by herself, let alone spend time in the word. You know what I'm saying. So helping that be really a priority in your family. Family, that man, we, we all spend time, you know.
Speaker 2:We spend time in the world, we pray, you know, and uh yeah, again, that's some some of those listening tuning exercises come from uh, the ways in which our devotion at home really matters, and that that may be bible study by the fireplace and maybe songs together, but it definitely is time together. I think one of the things that I worry most for young ministers is that the church life is the substitute for their spiritual life. Yeah, and that at home that all the things that they would want for their students and their families are like wistful and not practiced in their own, in their home. Cause again, that's cause that helps to like ground the reality of like man. It's really hard to get all four or five of us together to sit down and open our Bibles. Like being like tuned to that struggle, I think, will help you minister to the families that are like man. We love what you're saying. We have trouble finding the time.
Speaker 2:And I think, whatever, whatever we're asking of the families in our ministry to be first grounded, and rooted in that same for our own personal devotion. Personal yeah, students, you ought to be in the Bible every day. Awesome, brother, I hope that you are too, and I think that just I think it's the truth I have that veracity or whatever.
Speaker 4:It's the King, Saul thing right, so King.
Speaker 4:Saul, you know, asked by Samuel to go and take care of all the Amalekites, and he kind of does it. And whenever the prophet Samuel calls him out on this because God is disappointed that he hadn't completed, because he kept the king alive and some of the plunder, you know, this is the famous verse where Saul says well, I kept all these things for sacrifice, yeah, yeah. And this is where Samuel replies well, to obey is better than sacrifice, right? So it's that relationship with the Lord that's more important. I think what happens in ministry is because we get busy doing the things of the Lord. We're doing, doing, doing. After all, who else is going to hang out with these teenagers?
Speaker 2:There's so many people in our church that don't even like them.
Speaker 4:So me and Jesus man, we're tight.
Speaker 4:Yeah yeah, when I walk you out of here. It has to be separate from that, like there has to be a. No, I actually am walking with the Lord personally and what I'm doing is an overflow. Yeah, now I'm like, oh, I'm just kind of doing this on my own. I feel like right now, you know, but, man, that that walking with the Lord, sacrifice, is great and it's part of it, but that in itself is not equal and I think, long term, if, if all you're doing is sacrifice, sacrificing, sacrificing when you get into your thirties and you have toddlers and you have kids and you have less money, that's going to be a real moment of like okay, am I going to keep doing this, or am I going to become a pastor and make a little bit more money? You know, and I love pastors I mean, I do, you know, and I think youth pastors make great pastors but I think that's when that temptation comes.
Speaker 2:Okay. So one of the questions that I get asked a lot, that I want to ask y'all I that I get asked a lot, that I want to ask you all I'm asking you because I get asked and I'm going to steal answers how do you stay fresh? Because this is always, I think, the tension. Right, like aging and youth ministry, it's both a challenge because of the nature of the work, sometimes the nature of the financing of the work, but the third one that's always hanging out there is the relevancy that we feel connected or committed to those that we serve. So, for folks that have been in it for more than a minute, since 19 or more, what are some of the ways that you stay fresh to the work?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I'll just carry off what Matt was saying, just as far as being a lifelong learner.
Speaker 4:Yeah, for real.
Speaker 3:Because you have to, otherwise you stagnate.
Speaker 3:It's like you get locked down somewhere and that thing that you've used to do, the thing you've always done, that's what you continue to do, and I think you have to be willing to kind of unlock those pieces.
Speaker 3:I think this is a good lesson for every level of leadership, especially in today's world that changes so rapidly. It's moving at a breakneck pace. It's moving at a breakneck pace and so, um, if we, we are just willing to uh, lock onto old methods and not be willing to change, then we're going to, we're going to stall out. So I think relevancy is in being willing to change, open to change, being a lifelong learner. Set you up for that. But then I also think, um, uh, putting, putting younger leaders around you, uh, listening to different voices, giving more people a seat at the table, handing over that work I think that's a big part of it as well. So those are a couple of things I feel like are helpful in staying relevant and fresh and then not losing sight of the fruit. We do eight weeks of camp camp and so we have 40 nights of worship services.
Speaker 2:Uh, we have week seven, yeah, so how?
Speaker 3:do you and I think it's just standing there and it's a reminder to our staff and a reminder like, uh, our, our full-time staff, as well as our summer staff, like that we work with, like to look out there and to realize what's happening in that moment, to see that change, and that's what drives you to keep going, because that's the important stuff. You're setting all those other things up to have the permission to speak into someone's life. You're doing all the activity to have a door into a student's life, to be able to speak into, to have an audience with them, and so we set up all the camp activity to accomplish the real thing. And so I think, just being reminded and reminding yourself continually of the work we do, not just with students, because we're mainly focused as a state convention on leaders, and so having those one-on-ones, having those mentor groups, seeing those young leaders make connections, or those older leaders, more experienced leaders, find freshness in what they've been doing for decades. So I think for me, those are some things that help with that relevance. Love it, yeah.
Speaker 4:I like that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I would say this as well, that um understand what relevance is right, my relevance is not found in me being cool and hip and young, in fact.
Speaker 2:I agree that is sussing cringe. Thank you, matt, you are killing it. Yeah, cool man.
Speaker 1:I'll grew that a long time ago.
Speaker 2:Maybe I was even in that for an incredibly shorter window than I actually thought I was. Knowing the words versus using the words. Yeah, that's right.
Speaker 1:You know our relevance, we know this right. It's found in our authenticity and our walk with the Lord and the significance of our relationship with the people we're caring for. So if we have those two things, we are very relevant in what we're doing, and so I would just encourage it again. What we just talked about in terms of your personal devotional life and nurturing meaningful relationships with the people God has called you to shepherd, those are the things that we find our relevance, we find our significance in, and it's the role that we play in leadership in church, and so hang on to those things. Understand what relevance means, but I think, just the recognition.
Speaker 1:When you have done this for years and years, there can come those times it feels like am I really making a difference? Is there an easier route? Is there something that would afford me greater blessing in my life if I did something different? And those questions are always yes, right, there are those things out there, but what keeps you strong and faithful in what you're doing? And I think a couple of things that's been really, really helpful is recognize the value of mentoring others to do what you do. I had a conversation with a student pastor a couple of weeks ago and he had been at his church now for six or seven years and done a phenomenal job in terms of equipping adults to connect with students, and one of the things he's been able to do in the last year on their Sunday morning group gatherings. He's not present with the students, it's fully led by his adult volunteers, and what he does during that time is he leads a small group of youth parents.
Speaker 1:He and his wife are teaching weekly a group of moms and dads, and it's this recognition like, hey, we can do more than simply just the things we've always done. And if our desire is to reach and disciple students and their families, it's going to come in various modes at different times, and so recognize those things as well. And I think another thing too I always encourage our ministry leaders that might have a few more years behind them is to look around and find a young person who you feel like is gifted and called and you go be the person investing in their life and go seek some time with them, because that relationship is going to keep you fresh, right, because when you hear their passion, their excitement, to watch them learn yeah, sometimes their idealism of how they understand what the church is.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's going to be an encouragement to you. It's good.
Speaker 4:Yeah, it's really good.
Speaker 4:Yeah, no-transcript concert last night, where you know it was a Christian and worship broke out and I was moved and I was moved right, you know, and I think in youth ministry and in ministry period, I think one of the ways you could kind of do a check there is when's the last time, even on Sunday morning, whenever we were seeing the kind of same hymns that we always sing, or whatever, depending on what worship setting you're in that I was actually moved like you're having to do camp over and over again at night, you know or when's the last time when I was listening to my pastor, because I was so watching and into it that I was allowing myself to be moved by the spirit, to be taught, you know and, and I think, in that there comes a freshness.
Speaker 4:you know, and, and I think again, if you're not careful before you know, you can go months before you've really allowed yourself to be moved by the spirit and you're just in the motion of just getting this stuff done. Yeah, you know, and so I think, and honestly I think, one of the reasons why we see some people get out when they do is because they're all, they're all removed by it. It's no longer filling, you know, and so it becomes a thing that it's because if it's not filling anymore, if it's just you're going through motions, man, you can do that at Walmart you know, Like I mean you know, I mean, you know.
Speaker 4:So I think that part matters a lot.
Speaker 2:To circle back to the beginning stuff, the work itself, like the work, isn't it? Like I mean again planning the event. The camps, like if God's not in all the camp stuff, what a long summer.
Speaker 2:What a tedious summer, if there isn't stories of life change and opportunity and connection and growth and devotion. What a miserable way to miss out on what God is really up to. And so I think, man, hearing y'all say that is so good, I think to flip it. So the burden of the learner is to ask the question, but I think, for the burden of the experience is to seek out those that are longing to learn and ask them what they're learning. I love asking younger leaders who are you reading? Who are you learning from? Because maybe I'm missing something, and that's one of the things that I think is so important.
Speaker 2:When I hear the word relevancy, I don't feel so much as like what do I need to do to fit me, but what is changing around me that I may not be aware of? And I think those are some of the again learning the words, not always using the cringe words fam, sorry. All right, we're here at the summit. One last question to y'all You're still in it, we're still doing it. What is on the horizon for you? What are the conversations that you're having? In a few sentences? 2025 and beyond. The youth ministry concerns questions, challenges that you are thinking about either through your state, your region or your season of life, like what's on the horizon for you? You don't have it solved, just like man. This is what I'm really excited about, or thinking about right now.
Speaker 4:I don't mind starting um like uh, cause I feel like it's, I feel like I'm going last every time, but I don't want to go last, this time no no Um cause. I think Todd's going to have the biggest impact on this one Todd had a wink when I said the question.
Speaker 4:So we'll see. Listen, I mean, I think, uh, man, I I think related to what I'm specifically doing as a leader of leaders right For us to continue what you talked about when it comes to networking, man, we strategically are just trying to continue to figure out, and I know you're passionate about this one. How do we network well? How do we network well? Together Helping the church to understand that you do not have to do this alone. We are better together, and that virtual has opened up a whole new world, yep, and that's been going for a little while.
Speaker 4:It's not like that's brand new, but I think that's something that I'm going to have to continue to wrestle with in the coming days is just continue to help youth pastors, especially when they're younger and they may not feel they need it as much. The guys that I'm telling you that I'm meeting, that are killing it, are the guys that are like, yeah, I need some help. Those are the guys that are going to go actually, dude, you're going to do this Plug me in.
Speaker 3:You're going to do this a long time no-transcript.
Speaker 1:Zach, I feel like we're setting Todd up for the big final.
Speaker 3:I'm just going to listen and jump in here.
Speaker 2:Share what you guys don't. I got it yeah.
Speaker 1:I think a couple of things that come to my mind quickly is helping our ministry leaders recognize the diminishing amount of time that churched families are giving to the local church each week and how to be effective in discipling when they're seeing students and families far less than what we used to see them. And so it's this recognition that life becomes busy. But again, as parents, we make those choices. We choose to be involved in certain things or we choose not to be involved, but regardless, we see the trend in our culture is that families are church.
Speaker 1:Families are spending less and less time in their church, and we can look at different numbers and see what those numbers might be. But the reality is this as a student ministry leader, how can I effectively disciple when I'm only seeing them two, three, four hours per month, and part of that time they're not with me? We're in the corporate worship setting as well, and so I think just learning to do that. The other thing I think we're seeing in our state, and I think is probably much beyond where we are, is that the number of full-time ministry leaders, that their sole responsibility as a student pastor, is dwindling. Most of our churches that have full-time ministry leaders, they're wearing multiple hats, and so how do we then equip people to serve in these roles when they have four other responsibilities their church has placed on them as well.
Speaker 1:You're also to lead discipleship. You're also to lead missions. You're also to lead children's ministry. You're to do all these other things. In addition to all the time investment we want you to be as a student pastor. And so I think learning, helping folks to navigate just those competing expectations that churches may have on them and flourish in them, I think is on our horizon. That's good. Thanks man may have on them and flourish in them, I think, is on our horizons.
Speaker 3:Good Thanks, man. Yeah, I think we're at a season where we're recreating a lot, repurposing a lot of things, evaluating whether these things we're doing are still relevant. How can they continue to be? Because, earlier, thinking through the relevant side side of things, this relates to what's currently going on. I think that you look at what are the repeatable, timeless threads through the things we used to do, that, yeah, that need to be refreshed in a way. So we're engaging a whole new crop of leaders.
Speaker 3:In our state we are seeing the number of full-time diminish not rapidly, but it's diminishing Whereas bivocational or volunteer leaders who are designated as youth ministry people in our churches are increasing, and so how can we continue to develop them? So, really, the conversations, whether it's missions or whether it's called the ministry for church leadership or whatever the case might be, how are we helping our churches develop intentional pathways of development? I'm going to say pipelines. Pipeline can be a word that is often overused, but it's like how are we intentionally steering and so the attention to intentional steps, maybe on a reduced number for higher effectiveness? How can we continue to accomplish those things effectively and engage more leaders? We have a strong, long history, zach Chad, you guys are familiar with our Oklahoma Youth Ministry Network over 40 years old.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I mean, we see it, the importance of it, but a whole new group, that room has changed in the last three years, even or four years, it's crazy. And so how do we continue to engage this new crop of leaders, men and women, in the network? But through intentional pathways, seeing them come from students through college into ministry positions in our state and so. But I think that probably extends beyond this intentionality. In a season, in a culture, in a climate where clarity is of utmost importance.
Speaker 4:How can?
Speaker 3:we continue to be so clear and intentional to move people in the right direction, whether or not they're going into ministry or not, whether they're going to be a mechanic or they're going to be a stay-at-home mom or they're going to be a public school teacher. Like what arena are we developing them intentionally to be lifelong believers who have impact for the kingdom? It's great. It's great.
Speaker 2:It's great. Well, gentlemen, thank you for hanging out today we're going to spend the next couple of days together doing stuff, but for our friends, listen and watching it at home, wherever you're at, blessings onto you in this new year and this new season of ministry. Thanks, see you next week Snap.
