Youth Ministry Booster
Welcome to the Youth Ministry Booster podcast! The most honest and hilarious podcast in student ministry. Hosted by Zac Workun and Chad Higgins. We are the biggest fans of youth ministry leaders like you!
We are here for you with the humor and the help to engage, entertain, equip, and encourage.
Youth ministry is better together. Learn more @ http://www.youthministrybooster.com
Youth Ministry Booster
Setting Up Your Future Youth Ministry Self w/ Kevin Libick
Remember a time when cell phones were a novelty and social media was just a distant dream?
*Special Guest Alert Kevin Libick*
This episode is a nostalgic rewind featuring a seasoned ministry leader who’s been on the front lines since the late '90s. From the days of mailing out calendars and jazzing up bulletin boards with clip art (yes, clip art!) to the arrival of video editing software, we swap stories and laughs about how tech has completely reshaped the way we do ministry.
We’re talking about the shift from old-school communication to today’s digital-first approach, unpacking how technology has revolutionized the way we connect with students. But it’s not just about the tools—it's about the transformation in our strategy, from organizational branding to cultivating personal connections that really stick.
Balancing Tech and Heart: The New Youth Ministry Playbook
Our guest shares insights on how youth groups have moved toward individual branding and identity while staying anchored in the power of relationships. Multi-site church leaders, this one’s for you—we break down the challenges of navigating ever-evolving platforms while keeping the focus on small group investment and relational discipleship. It’s about prioritizing people over programs and flexibility over rigidity to ensure we’re ministering to students, not just at them.
Staying in the Game: Passion, Conflict, and Legacy
Let’s get real. Ministry isn’t all lock-ins and late-night taco runs. We tackle the hard stuff—like staying passionate when ministry starts to feel routine and learning to face conflict head-on. Our guest opens up about personal battles with adversity, including the life-altering experience of battling cancer, and shares how grace and humility can transform leadership.
We explore practical strategies for avoiding burnout, embracing collaboration, and empowering others to take ownership in ministry. You’ll hear how building a culture of service and trust ensures that your ministry doesn’t just survive—it thrives long after you’ve handed over the keys. This episode is packed with wisdom and encouragement to help you lead well and leave a lasting impact.
A snap. I love this because this is late night. This is late night. Some folks don't always know that, like when we record, like literally when we record when it is. But like you're here, like the kids are asleep late night in the garage hanging Hanging out late night, Like you turned the coffee down, Like you were like nah, I'm good, if I do, I'll be wired for the next three hours. I'd like to go to bed later.
Speaker 2:That's right.
Speaker 1:Well, my man, thank you so much for coming up from the great state of Texas hanging out with us a little bit, a little holiday fun. We've been talking the last few weeks with some folks that have been in ministry for more than a minute. We've been kind, we're not naming names or saying ages or presidential eras. Who was in the office when you first started ministry?
Speaker 2:It was a Bush, but it wasn't a W. No, it was a Clinton. Oh my God, it was a Clinton. It was a Clinton. That's when I started. It was a Clinton?
Speaker 1:Oh my gosh, yeah, man, that's For real.
Speaker 2:Yeah, is that for real? For real yeah 1999., 1999. That was my first internship was in 1999. Oh my God, and yeah, it was for a junior high ministry I didn't get paid.
Speaker 1:Like we're talking internship in, like the truest sense of the word, yes, internship, as in show up. Yeah.
Speaker 2:And you're going to be. I mean all the stuff, all the trips and all that kind of stuff Just paid and experienced. Paid and experienced. Just paid and experienced. No I worked in a daycare during the day, and then the afternoons and Sundays I worked as an intern.
Speaker 1:So you were like serving wait. You were getting paid by Peter to serve Paul.
Speaker 2:Oh, that's right. Yeah, that's right.
Speaker 1:Okay, and that was in you in california right in california.
Speaker 2:That's where I grew up.
Speaker 1:Okay, then I moved to texas and uh to go to school okay uh, went to tcu go frogs, oh okay I'm a horn frog, horn frog back like back before. Back before it was like a whole thing like now it's like a whole thing now. It's a whole thing back in the day.
Speaker 2:It was like, yeah, not so cool, although we had ladanian. That was the first. Oh, that was my first year, so that was big.
Speaker 1:What was that like? Getting to? Watch him just run all over people.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it was amazing. Oh my gosh, it was great.
Speaker 1:Well, kevin, we're excited to have you here talking about youth ministry stuff this season. I don't know something about the holidays that makes me contemplative, reflective. I don't know if it's just like things slow down, it gets a little colder, but just like, kind of like man, where have we been? What have we done? We're going to talk a little bit at the end of the episode kind of where things have been, even in the last year or two for you. But I would love just almost just like I mean I think for two guys that have been in ministry for 20 plus years, man, like what are some of the things about it I mean again interning in 99, serving in a variety of places? Like what are the big changes, the markers? Like what are you seeing now that is so informed from back then?
Speaker 2:Well, what's funny is so it used to be okay. I've been in ministry longer than my middle school kids in my church. Then it was oh, I've been in ministry longer than my middle school kids in my church, yeah. Then it was oh, I've been in ministry longer than my high school kids in my church. Now I have staff, but I've been in ministry longer than my staff. Have been alive, have been alive, have been alive, have been alive.
Speaker 1:Well, because they were born in 2001. They're ready to go. They're ready to go.
Speaker 2:That's right, yeah, yeah, yeah to go, that's right, so, uh, so yeah, every time I'm around my I mean my staff and and students, it's like oh yeah, you've been doing this for a while. Yeah, you know so when I started no cell phones yeah no social media yeah uh, you know there was. You had to mail out calendars. There was no email, there was none of that kind of stuff.
Speaker 1:If they didn't get the newsletter at church. You had to like post stamp it the next day. That's right. That's right.
Speaker 2:That's how it was I mean there was passing the plates, all that kind of stuff. So, um, I mean we literally had bulletin boards.
Speaker 1:Uh, my first internship to put out bulletins for what's coming up.
Speaker 2:It was a big bulletin. My job was to make sure that the bulletin board looked cool, yeah, so I had to refresh it with themes and pictures and all that kind of stuff. We were printing out pictures. That's like the original social media the bulletin board in the hall was your social media wall. You got to make it look pretty. Put a little meme on it A little fun clip art. There was no memes.
Speaker 1:We were before memes, we had clip art. We had clip art. So that's one of my. So if we're measuring ministry by artifacts, so actually I'll have to show you later. I have a collection of some old youth ministry books because I feel like someone has to preserve this history. Oh my gosh, have clip art in them.
Speaker 1:These are like precious to me just because, like, if you don't know, you can't appreciate what it's like to both either cut them out or run copies and cut them out and composite, like on the newsletter, composite the graphic of like Jesus and the skateboard with, like, the summer calendar or whatever it's the best.
Speaker 2:I remember I distinctly remember the first time I was ever introduced to video editing software to make videos for our ministry.
Speaker 1:What did that look like? When did you get that? What was the first video? 2002, 2003. It was like an old. Mac or something.
Speaker 2:It was a PC, it was huge and it was, you know we had. I even forget what the program was, but it was literally a tape, a videotape recorder. Okay. That had a converter. You would go in it, you would edit it and then you would hit render to save and it would go to a VHS tape Tape. But it would take forever to do and then we would play. Yeah, yeah, we would play stupid videos. Camp highlight videos camp highlight videos wake up videos.
Speaker 1:We were still doing wake up videos what were some of the like okay, we're here, we're in, we're settling, we're digging deep. What were some of the camp, like highlight, like wake up, like what do you remember? So I remember we had songs, I thought I was cutting edge.
Speaker 2:We had a middle school video editing video team.
Speaker 1:It was like middle schoolers. Yes. And this was way back in the day, just like straight up, like Geek Squad, yes, but we were making stuff, freaks and geeks.
Speaker 2:We did a parody of Pimp my Ride. Yes, what were they pimping? We called it Scrimp my Ride.
Speaker 1:Oh, what were they pimping?
Speaker 2:we called it scrimp my ride, and it was. They took my car and they made it look worse is the deal? We did that? Uh, I remember shooting videos where we were editing me and the youth pastor, my, my mentor, jeff, jumping off, pretending to jump off a train and into the water on a bridge, and all this stuff it was that was a big part of early on. And we thought we were just little Steven Spielbergs.
Speaker 1:Just telling stories, man, just out here telling stories. But one of the things that's so cool is that like that, like media storytelling stuff has been true forever. Like it's been harder to do or different to do, but like, yeah, dude camp. Like it's been harder to do or different to do, but like, yeah, dude camp. Like hiring a camp video guy was like the pinnacle of like early 2000s ministry, because you wanted to get kids faces at camp on video or at least a picture slideshow.
Speaker 2:That was a big deal for a kid to see their face for like a split second on screen. That was me, that was me, that was me.
Speaker 1:I did a cartwheel or whatever like that was the thing, like the kid that could backflip. You know he was going in the video, I know right he made it every year, yeah yeah.
Speaker 2:so there was, like there was that kind of milestone. I remember specifically the first time like, uh, there was a social media. The very first social media was called Zanga X-A-N-G-A Mine's still alive, yeah. And I remember my high school group when I was a high school pastor. I remember that was the first one, yeah, and everyone was sharing, posting stuff. So it's interesting to see what the engagement was looking like in all these different areas and having to grow and adjust and shift yeah.
Speaker 1:So it's been a wild ride to see all those changes taught you for stuff. Now, because that's one of the things that we we talk a lot about on the show and with friends in booster is I just think that there is just undeveloped territory in trying to connect, engage with students online, and it's not it's not new. I think the tools have shifted, so it makes us feel like we don't know how to do, even though it's been true for a long time, like have there been modes or seasons or tools where, like, engaging online has been better than others or different, or is it at its best now, or what does that look like?
Speaker 2:yeah, we're certainly is that a lost cause I mean, I feel like right now it's so splintered to try to capture whatever there was. There's no one singular place to find kids like there was before. Okay, and so trying to get on tiktok or whatever. Yeah, I mean, that's where I feel like I have to let my you know the younger guys on my team do it yeah um, figure that out and well, and some of it's the.
Speaker 1:The brand has shifted from organizations to persons. Yeah, like people are the brand. Yeah, like I feel like we used to have like youth group my spaces. Well, now I think it would be just like, yeah, it's just the people in your ministry each have their own. Yeah, and like that's the thing that tethers and like I mean, it's a little bit the thing that we've seen even in the ministry matrix of like youth groups used to have names and now it's just church underscore students or youth, and that's it Praise.
Speaker 1:Jesus for that. But again, I think it's good. But it's one of those like I think that's the move right. We went from having this like branded ministry to like no man. It's like that is. For me that will be. Some of the markers of a relational shift is that we have, like abandoned the brand right. Like calling it something, something.
Speaker 2:Extreme, extreme, literally extreme it's always extreme.
Speaker 1:It's always either something like extreme or explosive or, like you know, like peak. It's always. It's always a geographic, geographical feature. That's nowhere near. There was a lot, there was a lot of oklahoma youth ministries that had the word summit in it. There are no mountains to be summiting?
Speaker 2:no, no summit in here, ours is no tidal waves. We had a big middle school week called stampede. Of course we're in fort worth cow town sure it makes sense.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, it works, it works it makes sense. The smells, they're all sweaty moving in one direction. That's right, that's right.
Speaker 2:But I think the other thing. So it taught me one you got to adjust and grow and even if you don't understand it, there's going to be people. You got to have to bring on to understand the other side of it is nothing's going to be permanent. Have to bring on to understand the other side of it is nothing's going to be permanent.
Speaker 2:Yeah, whatever we're, whatever thing we think is going to be the, the next, the trend for the next 15, 20 years, it's not yeah something else is going to come along yeah and you got to pay attention before you invest so much into that yeah thing or that medium or that idea yeah, and it really you've got to stay true to the core of who you are. So I feel like that's the big thing is, over the years of okay, what is the most important things and stick to those and ride those out and ride the waves of every new trend or worry or fear that's happening in student ministry.
Speaker 1:So what are some of those that have been for you? I think that's one of the things that, like, it's really really easy in 2024 to be like I'm moving my youth ministry to TikTok Cause that's where, like, a bunch of our kids were. Or it's like man if, if numbers are the game, it's really easy to make a bunch of videos that might get a few thousand views and be like man. Look at all that or whatever. So, like from a 20-year perspective, a 30-year perspective, like what are some of those things that are the right kind of like, position value, clarity, things that transcend.
Speaker 2:Well, I mean, like the pandemic, everyone was I mean everybody in student ministry was talking about the idea of you got to have a YouTube channel and you got to post that. And it was mad dash of you got to have a youtube channel, yeah, and you got to post that, nope, and it was a mad dash like I. You got to get verified. You got to be whatever.
Speaker 2:Yeah yeah, oh the that, that three-week window of, like you follow me, I'll follow you, so I get my url that yeah, yeah, and that has gone yeah um, and so for us, a lot of it is relationships, investing in personal relationships. So for, I think, leaders investing in kids, so small groups, are a huge thing for our ministry. We are, you know, we're a large church with a large ministry, but we don't have we're not a fancy, we don't have a ton of like super creative social media video, that kind of stuff. We've.
Speaker 1:Our staff spends a lot of time with leaders and our leaders pouring into students because one of the things that's true for y'all is the importance of house, church stuff. Yeah, like that's one of the things that I mean, for uh, there's been some debates online.
Speaker 1:I guess there's a few large churches that have kind of posted their manifesto of like we are not going to meet every week at church for a program and there was some real pushback on that or whatever, because it was like well, if you don't meet every week, how will you minister?
Speaker 2:And I was like oh boy, I was like here we go. I'll be honest, I made that manifesto. So I serve at a multi-site church and I'm the guy who says this is what we do. And so pandemic hit, we all went in homes. It was awesome.
Speaker 2:We saw a ton of growth and I was like we're never going back, baby, we're never going back. Well eight, nine months in two of our campuses are like well, we want to go back and so I had to sit there and go. Okay, does that have to be the model? And in my world I work a lot with campus pastors and campus staff. So right now, our multi-site church two of our campuses meet at the church weekly large group, then followed in a small group, and then one is weekly in homes.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and then every so often so.
Speaker 2:I had to let go. Okay, what is more important? Is the relationship the most important or is the form the most important? Thing, and so you know I thought I was being prophetic and super forward thinking and realizing. No, the core values are still the same and they can look different in different contexts.
Speaker 1:What kind of guides that across campuses? I think that is something that people feel that tension church to church, but you're naming it even inside of your own church. Are the values the same across those campuses? And so, even if, like, how they present, how they organize is different, the values are the same. Or do they? They have, they have given, taken their play.
Speaker 2:That's the. That's the ongoing question in my world is who gets to decide what? The form and what? The ministry? I think that I set the values. We're going to be in the scriptures. We're going to be teaching them so they can study God's word on their own. We're going to be doing small groups. So small groups is the thing, how it looks, and that's the contextualization, and I've had to learn that if I set the values and we have shared values as a team, then I can trust that they will make the decision that's best for them. That is also in line with the values, which is a place of empowerment and trust, and scary sometimes if they don't look the way that I think that they should look.
Speaker 1:But Okay, so let me, I'm going to dissect a little bit. Like what, what are what happens in? Give me, give me a random sampling, like if the groups are a little bit different and they kind of have to uncover and hold to, like, what are the? What are the groups look like? What are the ones that you're like man, this is exactly what I want. And then what are some of the ones that are like we'll wait and see, like well, what?
Speaker 2:what happens inside, because, again, small group matters, but like what happens in the group, like what's the so uh, I mean. So a good example is um. You know, one of our campuses brought their groups, um, back on campus this past semester because it served the larger purpose of the church. There was a five o'clock service that made a launch, and so it made sense to have it.
Speaker 1:Parents in one room, students in the other?
Speaker 2:Yeah and so that was a big thing for us is setting the idea of what is success. I think you have to define what success looks like in that group and then be able to say can that success be like in that group? And then be able to say can that success be achieved in multiple, multiple ways? So, like um, is it going to be an hour and a half or is it gonna be 45 minutes in a group, or, you know, is it going to be a home or whatever. But the success is our students opening the word every time. Are they, uh, our leaders talking less than students?
Speaker 2:like that's a win okay are they praying for one another yeah um are leaders checking in with students throughout the week? Um are they communicating with parents, like some of those big benchmarks that can happen whether you're meeting in a hallway or yeah, in a home, yeah what, um, I love.
Speaker 1:I love the idea of like there are, those are measurable. Um, that's one of the things I think some people struggle and that's why people fold up onto like a curriculum questionnaire guide is. Did I make it through all the questions by before the clock runs out? Yeah, whatever, like that is the big game of like there were seven questions and we got six out of the seven, or if you're in middle school, ministry guys, yeah, did I before the clock runs out or whatever.
Speaker 1:Right, like that is the big game of like there were seven questions and we got six out of the seven.
Speaker 2:Or if you're in middle school ministry. Guys, did I get through all the questions before? 10 minutes goes by, Right, right.
Speaker 1:Was I able to stretch? The questions to fill the time. That's right.
Speaker 1:Yeah, were the questions the right match for the time that we had? But the idea of like who gets the lion's share of the sharing if students are praying out loud by name, how does that frame because I know this from our friendship like you've been in it long enough and care deep enough, like that you are trying to launch and release folks. Is there like successful measures, markers from middle school to graduation? Like what are some of those things? Measures markers from middle school to graduation? Like what are some of those things? Like here's a healthy group, but we also want to see mark and stephanie grow healthily through. Is there some of those things that play?
Speaker 2:yeah, I mean, I will be honest, our, our church, isn't great at measurables in that sense and we're trying to figure that out, okay, um, and so I mean I have them in my brain of, like I said, can they study God's word on their own? Can they articulate the gospel? Um, do they have a heart for sharing the gospel? With their friends. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Are they praying for their friends? Um, are there basic theological truths that they can articulate? Yeah, other basic theological truths that they can articulate. And our core four this is what we talk about with our team is when we want every student walking with Jesus daily. So we've got to help them develop a living relationship with Jesus Community. We want them a part of a larger family. So we want them either serving in the larger church or participating in a small group, or both. Growth this is we want them hungry for God's word. So can they equip? Are they equipped to read and study God's word on their own? And then Jesus Community Growth Mission are they reflecting Jesus to their world?
Speaker 2:So, those are, like some of the core things we come back to. We don't have, like we have, a curriculum, we have a scope and sequence, but as far as um you know, we just repeat those four things in various combinations and men you know, uh, because I feel like if you get those four things, you're you're kind of good, kind of solid have those always been your four or have you distilled your way down into it over the years?
Speaker 2:We did a serious discerning process about seven years ago. Okay, and of course I'm the only one that's still on staff from that. Okay, I've been on staff Strong enough to stay. That's right, I've been on staff at our church for 16 years. Yeah.
Speaker 1:And so, yeah, I was so career longevity, but also church longevity, church longevity.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so, yeah. So we did this, we had a discerning thing, and so I've had to just continually hit that every, every year.
Speaker 1:Has that gotten easier to keep coming back to those four the longer you hit them? Or are you ever like tempted to be like easier to keep coming back to those four the longer you hit them? Or are you ever like tempted to be like ah?
Speaker 2:maybe there's a fifth. No, I just just for fun, we're gonna spice it up with a fifth the challenge is uh is I feel like we get it, but then I realize like new people come on okay leaders come on, yeah, and so it's the discipline of staying true to that over and over again.
Speaker 2:I think one I mean that's one of the big keys to longevity is not getting bored with the main mission. Right, how do you stay excited about something and so many of us, we get it's rabbit trails or it's new shiny objects or whatever? How do we stay faithful and true to the basic cores of ministry, especially student ministry, and not get tired of it? Basic cores of ministry, especially student ministry, and not get tired of it, Because to be in ministry you have to hit those big core things over and over and over again.
Speaker 1:Well, because the kids are always coming to it fresh, like the seventh grader you have. Now that becomes an 11th grader. Well, there's more seventh graders coming. That 11th grader may have finally gotten it, but that doesn't mean that you should be bored of it.
Speaker 2:Or they may have gotten it, but they're different now than they were when they were in seventh grade.
Speaker 1:Oh, man, ain't that. Yeah, they're hearing it with 17-year-old ears instead of 12-year-old ears. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, okay. So how do you not get bored of it? My friend, help us unlock this, because I think a lot of folks jump churches, jump roles or, um, relieve themselves from youth ministry. Um, because I I think you said it right like they, they want something else, or more, like, is it something in your own personal life that helps in this ministerial calling? Like, yeah, how have you not gotten bored in 16 years of the same place?
Speaker 2:So, to be fair, I've gotten bored. There have been seasons where I've gotten bored, Okay. Okay, you know, I think it's not. It's not a perfect function.
Speaker 1:That's right. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:To my senior pastors reading this I'm not bored right now. I don't know what the magic number is. I think like somewhere around year three. That's when you start running out of your tricks. Okay.
Speaker 1:At the crossroads.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so that's why I feel like there's a lot of transition with youth pastors around that year, three or four. You've run out of all your tricks, so now you're like I don't know what to do. So, now I got to go somewhere else and use the same set of tricks. You've run out of tricks, so now we have to lay track yeah, yeah, um.
Speaker 2:So I'm a big, big proponent of calling okay and understanding your calling okay, um, and because I talk a lot with our staff and team about understanding and living out your calling kurt johnston from saddleback he talked a lot about how uh, you have to choose to stay in it. You have to make an active choice to stay in it.
Speaker 1:Is there like an exercise for that? Is there like a? Morning meditation.
Speaker 2:Of like today, I choose Well it's like not taking the off ramp. He talks about not taking the off ramp. I remember that concept of it. I also think that it's like anything. I think the thing that clicked for me was I realized okay, so if I move on from my church at some point, or if I graduate to become a senior pastor or whatever at some point, I'm going to have to stick it out long term. So I better learn it now than try to figure it out later.
Speaker 1:That is Right, Right. Well, I'm just thinking about a lot of friends that were like I've gotten bored with student ministry and so they want to go be a senior pastor. And I'm like my friend, that's 30 years of the exact same thing, forever. Totally, that's 30 years of the exact same thing forever. Totally, you just traded fun for like. You have forsaken fun for tradition. Yes, leadership at a higher level.
Speaker 2:At least I can get rid of the kids that I don't like every four or seven years. At least they graduate.
Speaker 1:Adults never graduate. They just get old and things.
Speaker 2:So I have felt like a big part of it is to remember my calling. I still remember where I was. I was at camp when I was a senior in high school, wrestling with what God was wanting me to do. My parents, my dad, did not want me to go into ministry, and I just remember Jesus saying are you going to follow your parents or are you going to follow me? And so having that memory for that moment has kept me going and you just.
Speaker 2:It's like a fire that you have to keep feeding and stoking whether that's through personal growth and learning and community with other youth pastors. Yeah, I think, reminding yourself the importance, the long-term importance, of what you're doing. You just have to continually stoke it and so asking the question, not what's next, but what do I need to do to stay engaged now? Yeah. How do I stay in the game longer?
Speaker 1:Do you feel, like some folks and I ask this as a leading question because I just want to hear you weigh in with the right amount of experience and wisdom that they keep devising what's next in their ministry because they're not tending their own fire of what God is doing in their life? Like? Is that where we get messed up because we're trying to make the ministry what we need instead of feeding what we need? Or is it we're feeding what we need and so that's like shifting the ministry from the four that it needs to, or like the most like on on mission thing that it needs to, like where? Where does it go wrong? Or where does it get hampered by by the minister not taking care of what they need to? Or or again, if you get an autopilot mode, um, and you're not seeing it too.
Speaker 2:It's just gratitude of like I get to be at the front lines of watching God change lives in forever. Um, I think for me it's been helpful to have the. The longer I'm in it, the easier it is, because I have more stories of God changing teenagers who come back, who are now married, have kids, so I can see that it's working. Yeah. So I'm not seeing the fruitlessness of my ministry that helps so much.
Speaker 1:You're able to trust the process. Yeah, trust the process.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and so that's huge. I also like, let's be real, comparing what ministry is like now versus in the 1500s right what we're experiencing now like or comparing it to the prophets in the Old.
Speaker 2:Testament it's like no, they gutted it out in the same place for decades without any sort of fruit. God just saying be faithful, you know, do what I'm asking you to do. So when I think about me sticking it out longer, enduring some pain, not seeing growth, not having a career trajectory, I'm in good company. I'm in the community of saints that, for basically most of the history of the people of God had the exact same kind of thing that I'm experiencing.
Speaker 1:The Jeremiah that's spurned by his own folks, but yet he just remains with them. That's right. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:Ezekiel, I mean. So that's the part of it that I look at and I go okay. That desire to move on and to do something else that's a relatively recent thing in the history of the church, especially when it comes to pastor, shepherds, ministry leaders, yeah.
Speaker 1:I do think there's a positive trend and this is one of the things kind of maybe in a post-COVID, or at least in the last year and a half, two years that more and more folks are being raised up from the midst of either their church or like a neighboring sister church.
Speaker 1:I go through the Rolodex of friends that have been recently hired into things and in a overwhelming majority it is either that was their home church they came back to or it was they were a volunteer and a collaborative D-NOW of D-NOW and so this church that they were already familiar with. Because if the shift is being made to relational youth ministry, then that means the most valuable asset is how much relational equity you have, and that takes so long to accrue otherwise that it's much easier to try to train and figure out what we're going to do if you are known versus someone who might have a bag of tricks, that we're going to do if you are known versus someone who might have a bag of tricks that we're going to hopefully connect them deep enough that the relational thing will take hold.
Speaker 2:That's what gives me hope about the church, because we haven't. I don't think, at least in my experience, the church has never cared more about raising people up, the next generation of pastors on their own than today, right, whereas before it was outsourced. Yeah, it's just let's call the seminary, let's call the seminary.
Speaker 1:Hey man, our last one was fine, we moved him on. What models do you have coming out this?
Speaker 2:year.
Speaker 1:Like, literally, it's like the car factory line of like hey, we need that 2025 model when they graduate, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:And if you had somebody who was in your church who expressed, you would send them to go get equipped and then come back. Now it's we realize we have to equip them, we have to train them. We also have to have the long-term view of raising them up. Yeah. And so that part of it is, I think part of for me, that reminder of I want to see that pay off? Yeah, I want to. I want to be around long enough to see the change happen yeah, okay.
Speaker 1:So help us out, because one of the things that can't be taught, that must be learned is when you're somewhere that long, um, the relationships that you may have had in a couple-year window it's not that it's fake, but it can exist in a little bit thinner way. Yeah, Because maybe you could kind of skate by without a lot of serious conflict. I can't imagine you being 16 years at a place without having some like gut busting arguments with staffers or parents or just folks in the church. So in what ways have you grown? Are you growing? Would you encourage others? Because that's like the one everybody's like. If you ask youth ministry, relationships are the tool relationships the way we do ministry. Like if you ask youth ministry relationships are the tool relationships the way we do ministry. But we're going to have to get better at relationships strengthened in some of the conflict.
Speaker 1:We're going to have to deal better with. Conflict is growth. Conflict is the heavy lift of the relationship gym.
Speaker 2:So, give us some lift techniques, kevin techniques. I'm conflict averse, okay, I am, big time.
Speaker 2:I uh, you know, if you believe in any gram, I'm peacemaker okay through and through if you, if you don't, you're just a lot on your toes, that's right yeah real head on a swivel but I, so I've really had to lean into the idea that conflict isn't doesn't mean judgment, um, and I I mean to be fair like I gotta let go from my first full-time gig okay, because I didn't handle, wasn't that I was conflict, but I didn't manage expectations and respond to parents who had expectations of the ministry in the right way, and you know and I learned from that, and so for me I've had to learn that one, like you, got to be face to face with people so often.
Speaker 2:You know if you someone rubs you the wrong way, you responded with an email or a text message or whatever, and that's a horrible way to deal with conflict. And the other one is managing expectations. Okay. Both you know keeping my own expectations in check but also managing parents staff. You know other ministry leaders their expectations of what we can and can't do. You know never promise something that you don't intend to deliver. Yeah.
Speaker 2:And I think sometimes we promise things that we think if I say that, that'll make that person happy, like I remember specifically the thing that got me, I think, in trouble was I had a parent at my first church. I had a parent come to me and say, hey, we should do a ski trip. I had no desire to do a ski trip.
Speaker 1:I church I had a parent come to me say, hey, we should do a ski trip.
Speaker 2:I had no desire to do a ski trip. I was never gonna take, never gonna do it. I don't like skiing. Yeah, I'm from you know, and so I was like, yeah, I'll look into that I had no intention. She heard that parent heard oh that might be something that happens. I said I'll look into that, never intending to touch it again. Man, that was a horrible communication strategy that I thought I was trying to keep the peace, but I wasn't.
Speaker 1:You were setting up a problem for later. Yeah, you get burned Putting a fuse on that bomb.
Speaker 2:But also recognizing that those failures aren't fatal, that you grow from them. You get humble, you come back up and say okay, I want, I need to get better and actually get better yeah at those things yeah, okay.
Speaker 1:So I want to press in a little bit because I, I do, I I am sympathetic to some conflict diverse friends that might be listening. What are some of the conflict averse? For those that are conflict averse, what are some? Maybe some uh techniques, because you you named it like um heated phone call. I'll send a quick text. Yes, like what are some of those? Like matching the right communication. Some of those stretch give us the stretching exercises to help us flex that muscle as we're longing to grow yeah, I've learned that if I'm having conversations about with a person in my brain, yeah uh, multiple times I need to have a conversation with that person.
Speaker 2:Okay, so if I'm in the shower, yeah, and I'm just dress rehearsal in it you know you did this and you said that like if, if I doing that, that's a signal to me that I need to talk to that person. Yeah. Two is I have one Savior and I have one Satan, and the people that I work with, the people I minister to, are not either one of those. Yeah, the leadership that I wish you know was everything to me is not going to be Jesus to me.
Speaker 1:So releasing that person from being everything to me allows me to not, to not ever being able to have them screw up or whatever.
Speaker 2:Yeah, Same thing. The person that makes me mad or angry or I think, is the. You know, there there's one Satan and that's not them.
Speaker 1:As frustrating as he or she may be they aren't the evil one.
Speaker 2:Right Not to make it like overly spiritual, but at some level we can kind of and that doesn't mean they don't have you know, they don't get to have consequences or whatever.
Speaker 1:Or an even negative intent or whatever, but yeah.
Speaker 2:I think the other thing is believing, choosing to believe the best in people. And that's hard because you can get jaded real quick. Yeah, because people hurt your feelings.
Speaker 1:they talk about to be on your back um, do you have like a check on yourself when you start to feel jaded like? Is there something like? Is like an indicator light for you that you're like slipping from being sincere and optimistic to becoming a little bit jaded like, what's the? Is there like a caution or like a, a change in, like a self like? Is there like a self-awareness thing for you?
Speaker 2:yeah, I think it's a learned, it's a learned pattern at this point okay of checking my heart about a person if I start seeing that person as a problem that I gotta fix okay then then that person has become an object and not a person to me, and part of longevity in ministry is you got to be able to be hopeful for the people that you serve and you serve alongside, or else you're just going to get jaded. Yeah. And being jaded is a is a easy off ramp to getting out of ministry.
Speaker 1:That'll make you, uh, make you hard crusty and out. Yeah Well, and that's one of those that ministry can get confusing, because it feels like the stuff that we do is the actual work. Like that's one of the conversations about relational ministry as like the ultimate tool that I think is helpful, ministry as like the ultimate tool that I think is helpful, um, is it? It kind of is it separates us from the event we plan or the program we run.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's again one of the things that I treasure about, but we all are doing is like it isn't. It isn't about the 90 minute weekly thing. Like I've never once been like, oh man, this theme, this set theme this set design, bro, we got you and those things can be memorable and meaningful.
Speaker 1:But, yeah, if ministry is the thing that just lives inside of your study notes and planning center, I worry. I worry if it can be too well tuned. Yeah, um, that maybe, maybe that's another. That's another way of hardening the heart is, you know, call it excellence, culture, call it whatever. They were so worried about the thing that we were like making or producing, that we missed what it was, what it was actually trying to like foster or create.
Speaker 2:So we've talked about this before. One of the big things for me is I love to cook.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I love barbecue. Yeah, I love barbecue. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:And so the analogy for me is a home cooked meal, cooked with love and care, and time and time. You know it's effort and you're putting something on the plate that means a lot to you. Yeah, it's effort and you're putting something on the plate that means a lot to you.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but you're doing it with that person in mind, versus like I don't know if you've ever been to like a fine dining restaurant where it's like you're just showing off that you know how to cook this but it's a set menu, like it was already pre-printed before you got there.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah so you can, it can, it can look the same, you can have the same set, same excellence. But if I'm doing this out of a sense of like, I'm trying to set the table for you because I love you and I care about you, that is way different than let me show you what I can do and let me wow you with some stuff. If it's not done with that sort of personality, personal touch and mind, it gets found out pretty quickly.
Speaker 1:Or found out or commodified in a way that it wasn't meaningful to them.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:It was just the thing that we always do. Yeah, and that's powerful to hear from, and again I want to name it from someone who's doing ministry in a multi-site way doing ministry in a multi-site way, like. That's again the temptation of like well, this is what we do, everywhere we do. It has not been true for y'all.
Speaker 2:No, and that's gosh. We are not a McDonald's style and there's nothing wrong with that. That's just not us. And part of that, I think, is my leadership style of bringing collaboration, conceptualization and yeah, it's hard to fight because I like things done the way I want to do them and after ministry, as long as I've been doing it, I have certain ideas for how I want to do them. So for me to sit in an event or go to an event one of our campuses and to watch them you know I'm, I was at a, I was at a uh, one of our high school ministries had a gingerbread making contest and I'm sitting there in the back going, yeah, I wouldn't have done this that way or that way.
Speaker 2:I'm going okay, is that my preference or is that something that is really that big of a deal and knowing what's? What's the difference? Because, ultimately, if I, you know, uh, if I create a ministry that is just based on my preferences, then the people that I'm serving which a lot of them is my staff they're not going to exercise and grow and learn, um and how to do ministry on their own and their own flavor in there. So I'm not, I'm not equipping them or helping them at all.
Speaker 1:Do you think that flexibility is what has contributed to the growth Like? I mean just to go ahead and name it out loud like y'all have grown since COVID. Some have not. There are some ministries that have not. Do you think would you owe that some to the committedness of leaders? Flexibility Like what are some of the committedness of leaders? Flexibility Like what are some of those things that are like these are features. I mean, it may not be exactly true for everybody else, but it seems to be true enough for y'all.
Speaker 1:So what are some of those things that you would double down on?
Speaker 2:I think the biggest thing is leaders. So we're recording this around Christmas. The analogy that I tell my team all the time is be a father on Christmas morning, okay, okay. So I'm a dad, yeah, christmas morning. Ain't about me. I may get a present, yeah, but I don't care about the presents I get. It ain't about the opening for you. It's not about the opening.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I want to sit and watch my son open up presents. I want to see my wife open up the gifts I got for her. In ministry we have to be willing to find joy in letting other people open up the package and the package is man. I remember what it's like to sit across the table from a student whose light bulb just goes off or whose world is crumbling and they're turning to you because they like that is addictive stuff and it's good to be in the lives of students. The more you give those opportunities to leaders, to other staff people, so that they get the joy and experience of doing ministry themselves. That has been my mantra and I think contributing to my leadership abilities is I want to see more people open up those gifts.
Speaker 1:Well, because there's nothing that will fuel the Christmas spirit more than watching a gift land and thinking, ooh, what could I give next time? And I think that is that's so very different than I was asked to help with. Ministry, which is what it often is is hey, man, I'd love for you to help out versus, and as people say, ownership. I love your illustration of gift giving more than owning it, because owning it feels like we're running a small business franchise shop, but the gift giving is like man. I want to. I want to know them well enough to surprise them in a way that like really blesses them.
Speaker 1:And so that's yeah, it's like it's good.
Speaker 2:Or I could be a pilot who says I need you to help me land the plane, which is how we often treat leaders and volunteers.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, Um, and so you know, man, equipping the saints to do the work of the ministry, that's so huge and I'm I'm glad that I I'm seeing the church understand more and more that that being a pastor is not to be the one who's needed all the time, but it's to equip other people to do it and to care enough to to tenderly, lovingly, faithfully equip the saints to the work of the ministry. Mm-hmm, um, that's been's been, that's been huge for me.
Speaker 1:What? What is, I think, for a lot of folks, listening, hearing an agreement, but maybe not knowing where to start. What is some wisdom that you would give, maybe to and I know that you work with younger staff, so you probably have this conversation in the office or at the coffee shop the pressure they feel to do all the things and yet do a good job. I think it does come from a deep intention of, like I want to do well and I want to do right, edit or help, or thing that you often find yourself saying to younger staff, folks that are like trying to like do right in the right direction with the right amount of time that they have yeah, uh.
Speaker 2:So I think a couple things. First of all, uh, you got a normalized failure, okay, and you I normalized failure by I like how you say that so easily. Remind everybody, I remind everybody like I don't have it all figured out and I don't have it all figured out and I haven't had it all figured out.
Speaker 2:One of our staff, our team core values is is humility yeah, being we're still learning, we're still growing and I have to be able to say to my team and model just because I've been in this at the church for 16 years and student ministry for a long time, I don't pretend to believe that I have all the answers and so just because I created something, I wrote something, doesn't mean that's the way that we have to do it ahead of time. And so as the leader, you have to model that and give people permission to be humble and to fail and to support them when they do. I think you know if I had a side gig, you know.
Speaker 2:I'd be like. I would want to coach senior pastors on how to lead youth pastors with that sort of mentality of like it's okay if you fail, so that's a big thing. I think one is knowing your core values. Yeah.
Speaker 2:And so, like something that happened, so we had the pandemic. You know I've been through it all my. You know, in the last seven, eight years my parents I saw both my parents pass away walked through one of them with cancer. We had a pandemic and then I got diagnosed with cancer. Yeah, and so I'm leading this large ministry and I.
Speaker 2:I got diagnosed with cancer, yeah, and so I'm leading this large ministry and I'm down for the count In the middle of summer camps, trips, all that kind of stuff, I'm nowhere to be found. And I saw my team grow and learn and figure it out, yeah, and it was like, oh, do they need me? That was hard. Yeah, that was hard. Yeah.
Speaker 2:That was hard because I like to feel needed. I don't know about you, but I like to feel needed. And I had to stop and go. Okay, maybe it wasn't that they don't need me. It's because I trained them up to not need me. Yeah. And there's a difference. Yeah. To not be wanted versus man. I did the, I did the right thing, so you got to take pride in the, in the right kinds of things.
Speaker 1:Well, it's it's the, it's the urgent and the important. But for people, right, it's the, it's the necessity and important. You were very important in the process and for them, but it wasn't the necessity. Like like it wasn't the necessity, like like it could happen without you and I I don't know if everybody can get there, or definitely is there how have you led differently since? Like that's I don't know if we've even talked about that. Yeah, like leadership after cancer. Yeah, what is it? I know, Kevin, how do you lead?
Speaker 2:How are you leading now after cancer? You know, I think it makes me one. Cancer is the greatest gift I have for evangelism, because everybody knows somebody who's gone through cancer or who has experienced it themselves. So immediately I can talk about life, death, chronic pain, all that kind of stuff. Two is it made me appreciate the everyday more. Yeah.
Speaker 2:And cancer made me stop and trust that God is in the hard things, that God is in the hard things. When I was in the thick of it, I read a book on suffering by Paul Tripp and that helped me a lot to frame that.
Speaker 2:Okay, stop asking why. Why is this happening? To God? What do you want to teach me through this? And that's a principle that, whether or not you're going through cancer or you got a parent who's mad at you or elders or deacons who are frustrated that you messed up the carpet or whatever it is, or okay, god, what do you want me to do in this?
Speaker 2:And so it's a living, breathing spiritual practice that keeps me connected to Jesus that during the hard times I can't control what happens to me, but I control what I do to respond. And I think that turn goes from now. I'm not blaming the church. Now and again there are some rough situations out there. I know, you know people are going through some hard times and have some difficult leadership situations. But how do you do that without hope? You know, how do you do that with hope is saying I can only control what I can control and that's what God is trying to do in me through this. So so I think there's there's a lot of that and it really has made me think about how do I more intentionally equip the people so that, when you know I don't plan on leaving my church anytime soon, but at some point it's going to happen, um, is the ministry going to be okay without me and also being okay with not with being forgotten? So, like you and I, there's.
Speaker 1:There's a phrase.
Speaker 2:Oh my gosh.
Speaker 2:That doesn't get used a lot in the social media age, so we uh, when you're in ministry for a long time, like we have we could go on for days on names of people that were big in student ministry when we started that if you're just going to start you have no idea who these people are and they impacted us greatly and I realized that at some point I'm going to be forgotten. I could have the largest ministry in the world, have the most volunteers, most staff yeah, I got a lot of books out of print.
Speaker 2:That meant a whole lot to me, right and at some point I'm going to be forgotten and no one's going to remember who I am, and that is perfectly okay maybe even part of it. Yeah, yeah and that releases me to love people well and to not care who gets the credit.
Speaker 1:There is something that youth ministry should be more primed for than it's been, and it's a concern for credit. I mean again. Like we talked about at the top of the episode, kids are always getting older and moving on. And like the senior leader, I mean we just celebrated in this last year our beloved senior pastor. He is like a second father to me. He's at the same church for 26 years. Yeah, I mean you only get a big retirement like that once.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And he's still around. He's still beloved, but, like first of all, how rare it is to have someone retire so well, but he's primarily known to our little community and our church and we've hired a new senior pastor and things will be different, and not so long and not so many months or years, it will be different. And so, yeah, youth ministry should have prepared us for that and I guess for some folks I don't know, to be prepared to be forgotten as one more piece of the calling is really, really powerful.
Speaker 2:And I struggle with that. I think one of my big drivers motivation is legacy. Yeah. I think sometimes I have to check in my brain, into my heart going am I sticking around because I want to prove that I can stick around longer?
Speaker 1:Okay, or am I?
Speaker 2:doing it because I really do believe God's called me here. Yeah.
Speaker 1:At what point does the tally mark hit? And you're man, I at this point. We just have to finish, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:Well, it is weird I was talking to. I was talking to someone recently who goes 40 years in and doesn't finish, and I was like I have these mental milestones in my brain where I go okay, so the last you know when I first started. Okay, with the last youth pastor. He was there for seven years. So I'm like, okay, I gotta hit seven years, I gotta go eight.
Speaker 2:And then, oh, uh, my, you know the guy who mentored me. He was at his church for 10 years. Okay, Well, I gotta hit that, and so there is some check to there and there's some good things to gutting it out.
Speaker 1:But there's also some like pride issue, yeah, that I have to resolve so it's a little bit of a pr, though I want to hit that person. So what, what is is? Do you have one in mind now? Is there like a 16 on the crest of 20, or is there a like if we're 26 years into the whole thing? Like what is the?
Speaker 2:I don't know man, some parts I think, man, if I keeled over, uh, you know, on a camp, at a camp, that would be cool.
Speaker 1:but Lord, take me on stage, yeah.
Speaker 2:This is about to be a real cry night yeah. No, I don't, yeah, I don't know, I don't know, I don't know, I just I want to finish well. Yeah. Whatever it is, I want to finish well and I don't want to stay in it because I still love it and I still find joy in it, and I do. I wake up going. How could you not think this is the most amazing gig in the world?
Speaker 1:It's insane. Well, give us a little bit. So we're wrapping up 24. We're going into 25. What are some of the things for someone who has been in it and is excited to stay in it? What are some of the things that you're looking forward to in this next year, either personally, in this part of life and ministry, or for the season of ministry your church is in, or just in general? What are some of those things? That, again, what are you tending the fire with, uh, in this next year, brother?
Speaker 2:one of the things. So with our staff team, I kind of say it's like we, when you graduate a really great class yeah you're like oh, I missed that. We had some transition, some good transition on our team, so we've got a new group of staff members. I'm like, I, I.
Speaker 1:Some fresh freshmen. Yeah, now it's time to raise up.
Speaker 2:do another raising up?
Speaker 1:Say by the bell the new class? Yeah, no, that was a horrible show. New season, just new season.
Speaker 2:So that's been a big thing for me is how do I, you know, raise up and train up this next group of staff? I started thinking about longevity as a tool or a lever to see long-term change. I think that's such a hard thing for us. We get frustrated that we don't see the organizational change that we want to see, and so we get frustrated or we get impatient and we want to change things. Now I'm realizing I have at my tool belt the ability I know that I have the ability to last. So what are the things that only sticking it out for another four or five years is going to make lasting change in my church, and so one of the big things for us is evaluating how we do parent ministry. How do we equip them, how do we have a strategy to help them? Our church moves very slow. Okay.
Speaker 2:And so if you want to get things going moving, you got to be patient and you got to stick it out.
Speaker 1:You got to be heavy on the rock.
Speaker 2:And so, for me, that vision of going okay, what are some of the things that only sticking it out another four or five years will allow me? How can I accomplish those things? And seeing those through Because we think a lot of times in terms of yearly goals or monthly goals or whatever it's like do I have it in me to say for the next four years, I want to create something that lasts beyond me, whether it's um so parent ministry is another one. Another one is is that raising up of? Uh, I don't want to ha, I want to get to the point where we never have to look outside of our church to hire somebody. So how do we create a pathway of raising up?
Speaker 2:the next staff people. So we have a pathway of. We've got student leadership team in high school. We have a kind of this apprentice program for seniors, internship program. How do we create?
Speaker 1:that pathway. But even in the beginnings of like early high school you're already earmarking opportunities into the rest of what's going on.
Speaker 2:So those two big things for me give me when I'm sitting there going man, I don't want to miss out on seeing those things through, and I know that if somebody else comes in, it's not that they couldn't do it versus me. It's the likelihood of someone seeing those things and having the patience to see it out is probably not as um, not as likely. So that keeps me fresh and energized and going. Okay, I may not see it today or even in a year, but I want to see it longterm and that's what keeps me going.
Speaker 1:Yeah, man. Well, brother, thank you so much for hanging out. Uh, we're gonna go hang tonight and grab some barbecue later. Um so much for hanging out.
Speaker 1:Uh, we're gonna go hang tonight and grab some barbecue later. Um, yes, but yes, yes, uh, we we've got. We've got some tulsa options for you. Yeah, you haven't been to tulsa before, so I've been. I've been diligently like like figuring out what we're going to do next for stuff. So, um, kevin, for folks that wanted to stay connected with you, follow up, asking questions um things about longevity, leadership, multi, multi-site flexibility in groups, what's the best way to get connected and stay connected with you?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so I. So first of all, I love having conversations with youth pastors. That's, I think 1A is student ministry, 1b is helping raise up youth pastors.
Speaker 1:So bring on the messages, yeah.
Speaker 2:So my name Kevin Leibig, l-i-i-c-k.
Speaker 1:Um facebook instagram shoot the dms yeah, okay, yeah, well, I know that you're active in the in the facebook group communities as well, so some folks may have even like seen your name and not even made the connection until now so the next time that he drops a manifesto or leaves a comment, reply back at it.
Speaker 3:Let him let him know. Let him know, well, brother, thank know. Let him know, well, brother, thank you so much.
Speaker 1:Yes, thank you. Yeah, dude. No, this has been a long time coming. I appreciate you taking the time making the time. Holiday season is good to hang out with friends. Definitely this has been a good run. Yes, we've got friends coming in for the holidays Literally friends coming in for the holidays, doing the holidays. Do a little bit of podcasting and conversations in the ministry, definitely.
Speaker 3:Alright, crew, we'll see you back next week. Merry Christmas Snack.
Speaker 1:Hey, thanks for listening to this episode of the Youth Ministry Booster Podcast. Give us a like, rating, star review. Whatever platform you use. If there's ways to let them know that you like what you heard and want to hear more, drop it there. If you want to connect with Kevin, make sure to check the show notes for the ways in which you can connect with him on Instagram, facebook and other social media platforms. Until then, we'll see you next week.
