Youth Ministry Booster
Welcome to the Youth Ministry Booster podcast! The most honest and hilarious podcast in student ministry. Hosted by Zac Workun and Chad Higgins. We are the biggest fans of youth ministry leaders like you!
We are here for you with the humor and the help to engage, entertain, equip, and encourage.
Youth ministry is better together. Learn more @ http://www.youthministrybooster.com
Youth Ministry Booster
Youth Ministry Is NextGen: Building Bridges w/ TJ Scrapper
20 years in and still learning new things!
🎧 Special Guest Alert: TJ Scrapper from Tahlequah, Oklahoma, who has dedicated two decades to guiding young people through their spiritual journeys.
🎙️ Youth Ministry In A New Era (Reimagined)
In this episode, we dive into the evolving role of youth pastors and the growing recognition of their transformative contributions. Discover how the digital age and shifting political landscapes have reshaped the heart of ministry. 🌟 Let this new era foster collaboration and elevate genuine calling over mere charisma.
🚀 Leadership Insights & Personal Growth:
This week we share real-life stories of navigating ADHD in professional roles, unpacking how self-awareness, delegation, and community support can supercharge effective ministry. Discover practical tips to balance evangelism and discipleship, all while staying grounded and teachable in a fast-paced world.
✨ Bonus: We sprinkle in humor as we chat about the “wisdom” that supposedly comes with growing a beard. Earn the Grey!🧔♂️
Join us for a conversation full of encouragement, practical advice, and a fresh perspective on youth ministry leadership.
A snack. What is up, dude? What is up the garage got good, man, dude, thanks for being here today. We're hanging out in the garage talking a little bit about some ministry things, some big topics today, but, tj, you kind of are kicking off for us. We've got a few episodes coming up of some folks that have been in ministry for more than— people that are measuring ministry in decades, not years. And so, yeah, man, tell me a little bit more. Tj, you're in Tahlequah, oklahoma, been a youth pastor for 20 years, man, what's?
Speaker 2:changed? What's changed about ministry in 20 years? Tj, everything has changed about ministry in 20 years. I would say. You know, when I started back in 04, honestly, I should not have been a youth pastor at that time. I'd barely been saved for any amount of time.
Speaker 2:But just ready and willing, and I, I took the opportunity and ran, ran for it. I knew I was called to ministry. I was terrified of it, don't get me wrong. But and I've never felt qualified Listen, I've never felt qualified to do student ministry, to do what I'm doing. But God is good, he provides and preserves. But everything has changed.
Speaker 1:Yeah, what's something like I mean 20 years ago. That's like pre-social media, pre-iphone, everybody's hands Like what is like? What was that? Even like 20 years ago. This is now they're like 20, like getting into ministry. They got no clue when.
Speaker 2:I started. I would say the golden age of student ministry was kind of coming to an end. I'd say, like the early nineties to like maybe 05. And I'm not discrediting anything that student pastors did in that time frame, because they had a huge impact on me and my life. But you could put pizza out, you could do basic games and stuff and there was potential to grow, no matter what.
Speaker 1:There was a real social real social era right that's been. One of the big shifts is that I think youth group ended in like 2005, 2007, like like when kids were like I, where am I gonna hang out at? Like the mall's closed, where do we go? Yeah, which the mall? Who's even at the mall?
Speaker 2:yeah, exactly, yeah um, so that that aspect of everything of it changed and then, like, the political climate obviously changed and so things that I could say um like from the pulpit yeah, where students might stand up and clap and say yeah, that's, that's not right or? That's right. Um, you really can't do that anymore. I'm not saying you can't. You don't preach the word and yeah, speak the truth, yeah um, but you have to do it a little more.
Speaker 1:Takes a little more nuance.
Speaker 2:Yes, absolutely.
Speaker 1:Well, because the number of voices I think that's one of the things that we've talked about in the podcast before the number of voices that are speaking into the lives of students, whether it's through the algorithm, the feed, the YouTube channels, like whatever. There's so many people that are speaking, either rightly or wrongly, with authority. I mean, the life of a teenager in 05 was like mom, dad, coach, teacher, parent, friends, and now we've got influencers that, like kids, have never met and they're like man. I just want to be so much like him.
Speaker 1:You don't even know who that is.
Speaker 2:Absolutely, Absolutely, and you kind of hit the nail on the head. Social media technology, all that has come in and played such a huge part. The connectivity yeah yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:Well, tell me a little bit more. So one of the things we love on the podcast is always talking about the ways in which ministry is a part of something bigger Like youth ministry at its worst is a bubble of like, just like its own thing for its own end. One of the things that you brought to the table that we want to talk about a lot today is the way in which ministry works well, both inside of the ministry it's trying to do, but other ministries and so help folks out a little bit. Like we talk about alignment that's a big word in ministry but like, like youth ministry alongside the rest of the pieces of the church, like man, what's been your experience, what's been your wisdom of? Like this is like what must be, your needs to be.
Speaker 2:I think we're talking about alignment. What I'm saying is simply and everyone has said it for years that the student ministry, they want that to be a part of the church, they want it to be its own kingdom, and a lot of times that happens for many different reasons. We can make up any different scenario that we want, but at the end of the day, I think it falls on both the youth pastor's shoulders and the lead pastor, and maybe different leads of different ministries. I think everyone has to work together in recognizing yes, of course, this is the next generation. I know how we say it. This is the now generation.
Speaker 1:That's it. It's the next now.
Speaker 2:But actually working together to make that happen. As far as where I'm at now, river Valley Church, there you go.
Speaker 1:A shout out, it's on the hat. Yeah, shout out. Respect All my people Um uh, that's that's.
Speaker 2:One of our main focuses is just simply um, making sure that Wednesday night is, is exciting and hyped up.
Speaker 2:But, uh, for me, to make sure that students on a Wednesday night recognize we have church on Sunday and it's equally as exciting and it's equally as important for them to show up and serve on a Sunday and do those things, whether it's in children's ministry or the parking lot team or whatever that looks like. We want them to be connected because we know they're going to graduate one day and Tallahassee is a college town and a lot of them will choose to stay. We want them to feel connected as they grow older. It's so important, it's foundational, and we know that if they're serving a lot of times, they'll stay. It's one of those things, and we want them to be discipled. That stuff is important, right, Obviously, but just to be on the same page and for them to feel like they have a place amongst the adults. And there's a difference.
Speaker 2:I get it Students to adults, obviously but it's one of the things that I'm not used to. I'm not and I think a lot of these pastors will say they're not used to it but we're working hard at River Valley to make that happen and I'm seeing the difference. I'm seeing the change In fact—.
Speaker 1:Is there some things that y'all are doing? I know that you've been in ministry for a while there's been a change of culture recently, a big change of culture. Is there some things that y'all are doing like specifically the other, like again 20 years in? Are there things you're doing differently that others are like? Man, you should probably be considering what you're doing with this.
Speaker 2:I think it's me, it's my heart.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:So it's nothing structural. I would say it's me accepting this. There are kids that I see on Sundays, that I don't see on Wednesdays yeah, and I don't see on Wednesdays yeah, and I don't care. Like they're there and I'm excited and I'm happy about that. I may ask where are you at? Yeah, and I want them to know that they have a place there and a home there and that they're loved or whatever, because they are. But it's okay if they just want to come on a Sunday. No-transcript.
Speaker 2:And so it's really my heart in this situation. That decided to change and I'm all for it.
Speaker 1:I really am, and that may be novel for me and not for everyone else, but I don't know, man, I I feel like youth ministry ironically could be a little bit territorial, right or whatever, because like the, the double edge is, like it's such a defined age bracket right like, well, everybody that's six through 12th or seven through 12th, they're mine, they belong in my ministry, yeah like how many let's, let's be real how many of us are like?
Speaker 1:they have those families with students that like are in and out but never come to like camp or mission trip and you're like, well, they don't love Jesus and it's like, well, I mean, they may be at home, they may be like singing worship songs. Just because they didn't come to D now doesn't mean that they hey God but like. But what I heard you say is like literally like the youth pastor finding a place for them like to serve, like that's. That is a certain kind of like humble thinking, to be like man. I'm not just trying to lead these students into what I'm doing, but I might be one of the best people conduits to get them connected into serving as a youth into a young adult.
Speaker 1:It's like instead of just like man, that's that's somebody else's problem, like because you have the relationship, like that's a big deal, man yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and you said it. It was hard at first because you said that's, that's mine and really that that's been my mentality for a long time, cause I felt like I needed to protect him for a long time and the situation that I was in, the environment that I was in, um, and this is just different. And so, even though it's different and I recognize that it is different and it's better and it's a better method, I still at times want to be like no, this is mine and so it's just been a process.
Speaker 2:We're doing like the big thing here, yeah, yeah, um and so of youth groups, and I would say more so in smaller cities, are territorial and that's enough, you would think right there. But to have that in your own church, I think that happens a lot unfortunately. And so I wish I had Well one probably feeds the other right.
Speaker 1:If you're feeling territorial against other ministries, then you're not so far removed of just feeling it unto your own youth ministry.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah, and it never was like anything insidious on my behalf. You're not so far removed of just feeling it unto your own like youth ministry. Yeah, yeah, yeah, and it never was like anything insidious on my behalf. I didn't think I was the only one that could do this or that. It's just you invest in students like you, you put the time in, you're there, you walk through battles with them and it's hard to take a step back and say it's okay if someone else takes over that discipleship process within the church.
Speaker 1:That's all right.
Speaker 2:And so the Lord's been working on my heart in that area. But I think it has to start at the top, obviously, and our lead pastor, andreas, shout out Andreas and Emery, they really put a huge emphasis on doing just that making sure that this next generation is the now generation. It's not about just numbers and retaining them, but it's about they're going to be world changers, kingdom changers and all of that stuff that we say. So how do we make that happen? I love their mentality.
Speaker 1:I love their heart.
Speaker 2:It's something that I could easily see and get behind, and I'm all for it and it's paying off. It's working.
Speaker 1:Do you feel like part of that comes to the relationship that a youth leader can have with their staff? Like I ask a little bit as a leading question, just like man, like how, how much of this has been informed for you in a season of like reconnecting with your senior pastor and other staff leaders? Like, what are some of the things that you and Andreas have like in that relationship? Share a little bit more. I do think that's a piece of it. I mean, some of the things we've talked on the podcast, the two things that keep a youth minister in ministry the longest are the quality of connection they have with other youth leaders and then the quality of relationship they have with their senior leader oh, man, they have with other youth leaders and then the quality of relationship they have with their senior leader. So talk a little bit more about that, cause, again, it starts at the top and an unaligned staff is probably going to be hard to have alignment in ministry.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, Just having recognition from your lead pastor that you're in the room a lot of times is a big thing and and to be heard, appreciated and all stuff obviously. That that you would expect to use pastor to say, but to have it backed up by the lead pastor, yeah. And and when I first met Andreas before you know, we even really had a chance to sit down and connect he kind of gave his method of his approach on student ministry and its accountability to the church right and how they connect, and I was like wow, I've never heard that. He said you know, I feel like too long churches have treated youth pastors as something dispensable. They don't want to pay them a wage that they can survive on. And he said that and you said it earlier. So you see him bouncing around just trying to find a place to where they they feel appreciated and raise a family.
Speaker 1:I'll do youth ministry till I have kids, because I can't afford to do it otherwise and that's not a good spot to be in.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and so he, and it's stuff I think you want to hear and that you have heard. And it's kind of a dream come true for a youth pastor to sit under someone like that that sees it that way, and I think the guard is changing where the pastor doesn't expect his staff, or at least his youth pastor, to live in poverty and just being honest right.
Speaker 1:Well, that's one thing I will say in a season where it seems like youth ministers are in short supply. What do they say?
Speaker 2:It's a buyer's market right, yes, or whatever Exactly.
Speaker 1:If you are doing a good job, your church will find ways to value it, because, of how hard it is to find someone doing a good job. Yeah, hopefully, yeah, yeah, yeah. So just Andreas, that's not to make youth pastors real estate. That was not.
Speaker 2:That was not, that was um. He just uh, makes me and it sounds so cheesy like it makes me feel seen and heard. Um, but, but he truly does, and I think um with where I was at, like. Uh, I'm by no means going to say that I was a whipped puppy or treated just incredibly unfairly or just incredibly poorly, but I kind of began to believe that I was expendable and that student ministry was probably expendable.
Speaker 2:You know, and just you know, if there is a hierarchy, that you know student ministry was down here, and being with someone like Andreas and Irma and the rest of the team, they don't see it like that, and so what I've done lately and I do this is I'll back off and say, well, I'm just a youth pastor.
Speaker 1:You know, I've done lately and I do this is I'll back off and say, well, I'm just a youth pastor.
Speaker 2:I think a lot of us might do this I'm just a youth pastor, I don't need to be a part of this decision, I don't need to be here, and they're like no, we want you here, you are a part of this. And if this is going to grow or do this or going to lie and I don't know if it's just any one person's fault, I think it's just the way that it's been done for years but this type of leadership to me is new and I love it and I think I would like to see that across the board. It would be wonderful if everyone could appreciate that. But on the same hand, I do see youth pastors that maybe don't want that. They do want their own kingdom, and I don't know if that's an old guard kind of thing, but it has to come. They have to come in together, obviously, and make it happen and work together, because the world is just getting crazier and we know that. And how do we continue to reach these students?
Speaker 1:Well, tell me a little bit of that, because you're in a season now of kind of rethinking some things in this kind of new chapter of church life. Tell me a little bit more, almost at a design level, If you were the committee or the leadership, both serving in the role and thinking about the role or the area or department of youth ministry, how would you try to frame up better expectations? Because I think there are some churches that are kind of redrafting. What does student ministry mean? Like there's been a lot of folks that have moved to like next-gen ministry, where it's like maybe there's a person overseeing like youth and young adults or, you know, cradle to college kind of stuff or whatever.
Speaker 1:So, like man, 20 years experience in a new season, like how are you redrawing the like, the, the boundaries for, like what is the most important stuff? Or like the direction of things to go, like how would, how would you put it in a way to give it just a little bit, I think, of like what is the right expectations, both for, like, a youth pastor who's trying to figure it out, but then also for a church that's like trying to like hire, lead, serve, do, like what are the things?
Speaker 2:Obviously I think they should be called. I mean, that's between them and the Lord. But I think a lot of times you just want to find a rock star and you want to hire that rock star.
Speaker 1:Just to hand it off like oh, dude, he's so good. Just let him do Yikes, can you good? Yeah, just let him do yikes, I can't. Can you imagine any other business? You imagine going to a chick-fil-a and be like we?
Speaker 2:found this 24 year old.
Speaker 1:He loves chicken, so much and we just let him run the store and we just let him. He did it. Yeah, he ate more nuggets than anybody else in the last year and yeah, yeah, but there's just no like. We'll just see what. We'll see what happens. We'll see what happens that's it.
Speaker 2:I think a long, for a long time. They did put a character over the calling and I saw that for I don't know for so long, and for me it was easy to see, because I would say I don't have a lot of gift, talents, abilities that I can see clearly. It's just God is good and I do my best to be faithful. And you would see these guys who would step into roles, whether in Tahlequah and I don't want anyone to say who's he talking about?
Speaker 1:Because I'm not talking about anyone in particular.
Speaker 2:And just they step into a new role at student ministry and they're rock stars, but they don't last because, their character can't match that calling right, they're not ready for that, and so you want to look at that. And then I think longevity is someone. If they're, if you're bringing in, are they willing to come into that town and become a part of that town? And whether it's small, big, whatever and say I'm going to, I'm going to plant roots here we talked about that earlier and stay here and invest in this because-.
Speaker 1:Well, you even kind of gave a number to it, right, you want like tell it like what, what?
Speaker 2:what what's?
Speaker 1:what's the tj number? For root because rootedness sounds like a great idea. Yes, until you have a real dry season.
Speaker 2:So yes, um, I would say, if you have a guy, that is worth it. It takes upwards to five years to see the impact. Yeah, that they're going to want to see. Yeah, um, I know where I at the last place.
Speaker 1:I was at. Neither one of you will know if this is working out until five years from now.
Speaker 2:It's hard, it's hard because there are so many ups and downs and, depending on who was there before them, if they had a really strong youth pastor that they're stepping into their role, it's going to be harder for them. It's harder to take over something that's more successful than something that had failed, and so it may take three years just to turn over those students that want that other guy back, and then another year for that person to say, okay, these feel like not my kids, but my kids, my leaders, and to implement any kind of you know plan, however, that you know, whatever it looks like, but they it's one of those things where you know it's a complicated process. I would not want that responsibility, but if it was me, I would find a person who's relational, who, if you're calling their, what do you call them whenever they put them down? The people that you call and talk to?
Speaker 1:Oh, the call list or the references? Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:What's their virtue like?
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:Are they truly who they say they are? What's their virtue like? Are they truly who they say they are? And a lot of times it's you know, are they married? Do they have kids? Stuff like that, and I'm learning that.
Speaker 1:Just collecting bio data or whatever. Yeah, yeah, yeah, you're not shopping a Facebook profile. I want to know what they're like when they Are they good with students, and that was something that someone said, are they? Good with students.
Speaker 2:Do students connect with them? Do they connect with students?
Speaker 1:yeah, I mean at any age whether it's 25, 30, 35, 40, 45, even upwards to 60 if someone's 60 and they're called to do that yeah, I was gonna say I actually think that, like, the older they get, the more true that is, the better it is. Uh, just as a blanket statement, because, like, when you're 24, like are you good with students?
Speaker 2:Well, they're 17, so you basically are a student, you should be able to connect with them. Yeah, if you're 40. Yeah, I hate them.
Speaker 1:Yeah, shout out to Hayden. Yeah. But if you're 40 and still, like in the right, respectful, virtuous way, feel connected to lead, pastor, teach, do like that's, I don't know, that's almost even more admirable, yeah yeah, I don't know.
Speaker 2:That's almost even more admirable.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah, like I said make gray hair normal in these pastures. Like, make it normal, it's not a bad thing. Badge of honor man. That's right. That's right, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:In the past, like I really worried about what's going to happen when I get gray hair. Are they going to, you know, want to get rid of me and replace me with someone? New and now seeing where I'm at you any brush in.
Speaker 1:Did you ever do a little brush in?
Speaker 2:I do you better believe, I think. Now, looking where I'm at, I can honestly say I believe my best years in ministry are ahead of me. Okay, I truly believe that. And look when I was 35, I never would have said that. I would have thought when I hit 44, I'd be on the downside.
Speaker 1:Right yeah.
Speaker 2:No, downside Right. No, I'm like looking for the next thing or whatever. Yeah, no, I know more than I ever did.
Speaker 2:I still don't know everything, don't get me wrong. Um, and I'm still just as hungry to see students come to know Jesus as their Lord and savior college students, too, um, if not more, so Right, and so, um, and the strategies are different these days. Church isn't being done like it used to be done, and so the door is a little bit open, wider, I feel like it's a little wider, and I'm all for it. Let's run. Let's run as fast as we can.
Speaker 1:Say a little more. I know that the ways in which you lead and lead the team, like what, are like the right. I mean, what are the expectations? The schedule is always the thing that gets folks hampered because they don't know. Either they give every ounce of who they are to it or they manage it so much that it almost becomes inauthentic. So you shared a little bit about the importance of I know that, and hayden has been backed us up on this here uh of just like showing up and being there for folks, uh, but like how?
Speaker 2:do you manage?
Speaker 1:yeah, how do you lead in that way? Again, you can't be all things all places to all people. So when you're thinking week to week, working week to week, what goes into that planning or estimation or management of your time and energy and focus?
Speaker 2:To our younger youth pastors. If you are not delegating to the appropriate people, to people who are more gifted than you because you should have people out there that are more gifted than you are surrounding you in the areas that you're not gifted in you probably won't grow in the way that you want to. And let's be honest, we should be competitive about numbers, because that's the kingdom, that's kingdom work. You should want to grow, at least for me. I stay hungry like that. That's just how I'm built.
Speaker 2:Build different, no no but that is how I'm built. I just I always want to grow and so I delegate and make sure. And it's not just I'm selfishly looking for people that can do things I can't. The Lord provides in that manner. But leaders let their leaders lead, you let your people lead, and if, on a weekly basis, I'm not doing that, then I'm doing something wrong. Yeah, and I'm always looking for those that are called the ministry. Yeah, they don't have to be called the student ministry, but if you're called the ministry, I'm going to find you. Yeah, I don't know where you're at, I will find you, I will find you.
Speaker 1:It's like a little cut from the Taken movie. He has a special set of skills. Special set of skills.
Speaker 2:And I'll challenge you, I'll give you every opportunity to grow that I can give and eventually they'll all grow what I have to offer, probably quicker than I'd like, and that's it. I look for the leaders and I let them lead, because I can't do everything, obviously, and for me that's how I grow a team. I I never been through an organizational like leadership class. I don't really know what that looks like.
Speaker 1:Um, you know, as far as that degree a lot of hypotheticals, a lot of hypotheticals right.
Speaker 2:But I know, for me, um, delegation is everything and, like I said, not selfishly Um, I'm not, I'm not there to just use people, but those people that feel called or those people that have a gifting that they want to be used for the church, we're going to do it and that's what we do on a weekly basis, and I told you this earlier.
Speaker 1:If I can have a Wednesday where I'm sitting there doing nothing, it sounds crazy, but just watching my people grow and do what they're called to do and me be excited about it, that's a great Wednesday, Well that's a good baton handoff right, like if you're showing up and the baton at 6.20 pm gets handed into what's going on, then that means you did a lot of good work right before then, instead of sometimes the scramble that it could feel like, unfortunately, the scramble that it could feel like yeah, yeah, unfortunately the scramble with all the changes recently, it's still a little there.
Speaker 2:But um, I look at someone like hayden. I want to give him as many opportunities, as many chances as possible to get up and preach. Yeah, um, hayden's already very relational, if not more so than me, so he has that down. But I want to give him opportunity to grow in the areas that I can see he needs to grow in. Right, and he's he's doing it. If Hayden could be preaching once a week here in a month or so, that'd be awesome, that'd be great.
Speaker 1:Yeah, okay, I do. I do want to ask, though one of the things we talked about before the show, and some of it's coming out even in this conversation, is your ability to lead others think that we we got here from earlier. Is is a little bit related to how much you know yourself. I think that's one of the things I the more that we sit across the table from people, the more the question feels like those that have trouble giving the work away don't know either what the work is to give away or don't know themselves enough to trust others with it.
Speaker 1:It goes back a little bit of that territorial thing or whatever like well, I, I gotta do it yeah so tell me a little bit more like, because you've been on a journey of like, learning more about yourself yeah and so I think for folks just to hear, maybe or even connect with, like you're talking about the adhd with that, all of it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah, um, like hands down, yeah, obviously I knew. And going back to, like grade school, something was different, like I couldn't connect with people the way I wanted to, um, it was just a tougher road for me to to, you know, to finish school, all this stuff, um, but uh, once it's about 35, 37, me and my wife knew that something didn't seem right, like professionally I did not match up with my colleagues on any level.
Speaker 1:This is like in the last 10 years.
Speaker 2:Yes, this is not like the last 10 years. And I think for people with ADHD, no matter what professional field you're in, at some point you're going to get exposed professionally, like you're going to reach your ceiling, that that, as far as the habits that you've created and the way that you've chosen to live, you're going to hit that ceiling and and the expectations of your job are going to be too much.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:And, and I hit that, I hit that, and so me and my wife sat down and we decided medication is the best. And then learning about myself and how I operate and and having, you know, decided to do that, has just been one of the most rewarding things to find out. First off, I'm not alone. Next off, I'm not lazy. You know, I'm not weird. Maybe I am a little weird, but um, um, it's, it's not. It's not a an alone type of weird, like it's it's. You know, there are a lot of people out there that struggle with ADHD, and I say struggle because it really is a struggle.
Speaker 2:Um, in a lot of ways, you're not normal because you don't, you don't operate the way that society demands people to operate. Um, in that normality, um. And so I think, like I said, my coworkers, my bosses, they have to have a lot of grace on me, and they really do. I hope you go back and you guys go back and watch this, because I recognize how much grace you all have on me. I'm not and you probably know this, I'm not great with getting back with people on text.
Speaker 1:No, that's okay, I get, I get a text for TJ, and then I wait, and then I get a flurry of texts and then I wait.
Speaker 2:Yep, and it's nothing personal, like it's. It's just one of those things where I get sidetracked so easily and if I and I also feel like, if I can't give you the right answer, I don't want to give you the right answer until I can. And then a lot of times I don't ever get the right answer and by that, by the time I realized I didn't answer you, yeah, um, it's a week later and I'm like, okay, that's not all right, but I'm learning.
Speaker 1:and that doesn't mean like I said, there's some things you have in place that way, like are there some like reminders or like things, even with like your like? Office staff or volunteer team what are some like checks and balances on that in our office.
Speaker 2:Uh, I think they've implemented I don't think they think I know, but they've implemented block scheduling, which is it's vital for me. I've talked to my wife. My wife is a speech language pathologist and she knows about all this stuff and she's tried to help me for years and she gets frustrated because I don't always listen to her. Yeah, as soon as I should.
Speaker 2:I love you, katie, you're the best ever You're the best, but they've implemented block scheduling and it allows me to recognize when I need to be in for the team and when I can go out and hang out with students. Do the thing you need to do yes have fun.
Speaker 1:Is that like posted? Is that like in everybody's calendar? Or you map it out together, okay.
Speaker 2:And I think too, like I said, their recognition. Well, what do they do? They just have a lot of grace.
Speaker 1:That's what I call it.
Speaker 2:They have recognition of who I am, that I don't mean anything by the stuff that I do half the time, and I think when you have ADHD, the best way to put it is you live in a world of gray. A lot of people are black or a lot of people are white white and they can find the boundaries that they need to stay in. In ADHD, it's like I don't know where I'm at. I'm just going to make it through. Today, I live off. I live off urgency Okay, and I'm okay with that. But if you give me a plan, that urgency turns into like a nightmare fuel, you know it's like I have to do what, and especially when you didn't grow up that way, you didn't grow up recognizing this is what it was. It's just a lot, but having learned a lot about myself, what I'm not great at regarding ministry, yeah, so how are you delegating?
Speaker 1:What are you delegating for more of or differently? Like you shared a few minutes ago about, like you know, looking for the things and for the people that feel called in ministry, but even more specifically in the company of like youth ministry leaders, like what are some of the specific, like functions or things. You're like man, here are the people I need in my life. So Hayden could probably answer this one for me.
Speaker 2:Anyone at River Valley can probably answer this for me. Like the woman I married, um, hands down administratively, is just gifted, like she can make a flow chart quicker than anyone, um, anything like that. Uh, and it's uncanny that I wasn't just attracted to her beauty, like I recognize that she's a strong woman who who, like, cares about me and understands who I am and is willing to come and help me in these situations and I call them situations because I would find myself in situations where I just wasn't measuring up at work. She's always been there and I look at someone like I'm going to give a shout out to Leah. She's been with me and Katie for what?
Speaker 2:Eight years now in student ministry. She's walked through battles with us, through trials and tribulations, and, and she understands me as well as anyone and and she's she's game for it she knows that she's probably not going to get a text message back whenever she wants it or, um, she understands that she's going to have to remind me multiple times on stuff. And, as you're watching this, I promise you I'm not that toxic. I promise you I'm not All right, Not everyone with.
Speaker 1:ADHD. But you're aware, I'm very much aware of my insufficiencies and the things I'm not great at. And so, when it comes to delegation, I'm going to delegate anything that involves administrative work, mapping out, planning, the dates, the timeline, the communication plan Absolutely yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:And so Nathan, shout out to Nathan, he was our last intern, really good at that stuff. And this is where me and Hayden are going to try to find out how to work this out, cause he's very relational, he's administratively, he's, he's along the lines of me and how I operate, and so we're going to figure this out. No-transcript another thing I'm hyper fixating on this and in the meantime, you know, I should have messaged 18 people back. But I'm having fun over here hanging out with the students, you know.
Speaker 2:So, there's two worlds that have to collide and work very well together, and I've learned I can't just neglect this over here. How do I strategize to fix that? Let's surround myself with people who are gifted in those areas.
Speaker 1:And then not trying to mask it too. Sometimes people are like well, I'm insufficient there because that's not important?
Speaker 2:right or whatever.
Speaker 1:We've teased before in the podcast that like there are some folks that are like so serious in ministry because fun is dumb, or whatever and like no, I don't know if that's actually true. I think that's maybe not your favorite thing is to plan the fun or whatever. Uh, but I think one of the things I know from just talking with you is like the willingness to know yourself enough to not just ask for help, because I want more helpers, but to make the ministry more thorough.
Speaker 2:Yes, make it better.
Speaker 1:Yeah, to make it better is like something that really really matters, and like, and until you're willing enough to be honest enough to like understand, evaluate I mean almost investigate yourself right, like, like, am I having these problems because the problem or is the problem me? Yes, uh, even even at 36, like you're saying like 10 years ago, like you're asking these questions like this isn't like, uh, well, at 25 I have it figured out, kind of stuff, like, but even as a leader, like in your 40s, of asking, like, what are the things of me that might get in the way of the bigger work that we were trying to do?
Speaker 2:like that's real man that's real, and so I think you kind of hit the nail on the head. Is learning to ask for help?
Speaker 1:yeah, um but knowing yourself well enough to know what to ask for. Absolutely, I think I've seen so many youth leaders be like I wish I had more helpers. And you're like cool, what would they do? Yeah, and like well, I don't know, I just need more help. Well, man, if you don't know what they're going to do. Nobody wants to sign up for a blank check of like hey, come help me. I don't know if I can pay it.
Speaker 2:Right, right, and I'm not always great at that either. I'm sure there are some leaders or sponsors that show up every week like what am I doing? What?
Speaker 1:do I need this week?
Speaker 2:And the answer to that is you're connecting with students.
Speaker 1:That's your job, right.
Speaker 2:But with this whole transition to River Valley Church, with planning it, it's something that I had to learn to do at a higher level than I ever had to do before is ask for help. Yeah, not just in recognition of what I'm insufficient at, but just recognizing what's best for the ministry, um, and so we want to feed the students every every wednesday. Yeah, um, that's hard to do. I've never done that, never tried to do that. I know that's normal for a lot of churches, but for us, uh, we've never done that. We're a new church, um, and so, uh, how to make that happen?
Speaker 2:how to make it work so I asked michlor um, her and her husband Mike. They own a local business in Tahlequah um, that make food, amazing food by Delia's shout out by Delia's wonderful food and great food, um, and I asked them for help and they were willing, and so every week they take it upon themselves to um kind of uh, organize the parents to make sure what's being brought, how much of it like like I don't have to do anything about it or worry about it at all. I never had that. But but here's the thing I never asked for it. You know, I never, um, I never looked for that. I wanted it, um, I thought it was something might be possible and so ask her for help and just, you know, going for it, sometimes it's there. Yeah, you know, you just don't know it being willing to be surprised you?
Speaker 1:no, it's. It's interesting that sometimes the enemy of the help that we need is the stuff we already have right, like, um, I know for y'all in this new season, like some of the help you need is stuff that you probably even know you could ask for exactly. You already had a plan there was already something in the works, right there was already something going like well, we don't need that, we already have this, it's the.
Speaker 1:You know, we didn't think about asking these folks if we could use their land for this event because we had like a little bit of green space at the church. But man, if you've been to their place, it'd blow you away.
Speaker 2:Yes or whatever. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:So I have one area of conversation to have and this goes back because this feels like one of the I don't know this shouldn't feel like a classic debate in youth ministry, but it feels like a classic tension and I have a suspicion it's about to become tense again because of a renewed interest in being more outreach-driven, invite culture, stuff, and it's I again. I did not frame it this way, but it often gets framed this way of discipleship versus evangelism, as if they don't interact with each other.
Speaker 2:They have to work together. In synergy they're together, there's no separating.
Speaker 1:But at the same time, like I know that that informs and shapes a lot of people's like plans for ministry stuff. So, like one, why does that get with 20 years of wisdom? Why do those things get like put in competition or intention? And two, how do we like rightfully practice both without like becoming more one than the other or whatever Like? That whole bit. Why? Why is that a mess, tj? Why does that become a mess? Well, for me.
Speaker 2:I only have recognition of it because I grew up in the similes of God and when I say this I'm just being real, all right and the time and the era that I grew up in the symbols of God did not seem to be the strongest in discipleship, but evangelism they were great at, it felt like right. And then, once I became youth pastor at a local church in Tahlequah, we relied heavily on Baptist camps and stuff.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:I had never been a part of that, never experienced it. They leaned heavily on discipleship in a way that I was not prepared for, and it really made me think have I even been doing my job the last?
Speaker 1:few years.
Speaker 2:How are my kids safe? You know, like to the point where I relied so heavily on evangelism and just hype, and so that's on me. I can say, you know, that's how I grew up, so I think that's why I have recognition of the two worlds that can clash. For me it's been hard having, you know, grown up in an environment that was evangelism driven.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:To put the weight and emphasis and value on discipleship that should be there, yeah, discipleship that should be there. Um, and and and to recognize that it that should not weigh the other, because you know, if they're not working, working together, um, the ministry won't grow either way, in the way that you want it. To have a very shallow ministry or have a very small ministry, um, both can be effective in their own ways. Praise God, cause God works through these things and he'll be glorified no matter what. But, um, how do you make them work together? Again, I would say it's, it's delegation. So I don't know if I'll ever be strong with discipleship methods. I and when I say this, this is crazy for you to say this. All right, and it doesn't. It's no indication as far as how we lean or do our services or anything, but I've never been as a fan of small groups Okay, and maybe because of my ADHD, of being in one or having them.
Speaker 1:I'm here for that. Chad gives me a hard time. I'll plan a small group and then I'll find a way to exit quickly.
Speaker 2:Yes, that's it. You know, I don't know if it's the, I don't know what it is. I I can dive into that, and I know that small groups are evangelistic in their own right but if done right, discipleship-wise, people grow, you grow together, I get that, but they're effective and impactful. And so I know that, with me not being a huge fan, I better find people that are Not just to do them but to organize, to be, to be, uh, um, you know a fire for them. Hayden has I don't know how many small groups hayden leads. How many do you lead? Two, three, like legitimately small groups? Three, yeah, yeah, he's, that's big for him. It might just be big for his generation, you know, like that's that's how they've been raised and brought up in church. Um, and guess what? Praise god that's that's his heart.
Speaker 2:We're going to lean on that heavily and he's beginning to have a huge impact on the young men around him, and that's what you're looking for. So I think it's just recognition of where you may lean and which way, because you're going to lean one way or another. I don't know if I've met anyone that is really good at both Christian, I think at Jenks seemed to do a really good job with both, but I don't know.
Speaker 2:He has people around him. Maybe there's a good way to balance that out, and it doesn't have to be this way. What I'm saying is 110% truth. It's just how I see it, and so, again, it's who you surround yourself with and who you delegate to, but even maybe some of the function of ministry I guess I go back to.
Speaker 1:Sometimes we use delegation as supplemental bodies for the thing that we were already doing, where it becomes more, the band has more members or the choir has more voices. But one of the things I hear you saying and maybe even for you to illustrate, illuminate a little bit more even some of the actual task and function of ministry, like Hayden and others that do in our own capacity, versus like I just you know it's it's better safety protocol if we have four extra leaders or whatever. Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 2:Yeah, um, if you're going to, like I said, if you're going to have leaders and let them lead, let them lead. Um, I I came to a point, I don't know how many years ago, where I decided I don't need any pats on the back. I get enough of that. Being in a small town, growing up there, people want to come up. If they see a picture that's taken on a Wednesday night and there's a lot of students in there, they're going to go. Good job, and I can never take the credit for it. I know that we want to be humble. I really can't, because there's so many different working hands in there, people doing what they do. It doesn't feel right. It really doesn't, because you know you have Hayden putting the work in in different ways in different areas.
Speaker 2:And I have different students, high school students, who are doing the same thing. I'm going to let them lead and I want them to get the recognition. I don't need that at all period, and so, yeah, that's what it comes down to. If you're going to delegate, don't just delegate what you don't want to delegate what you don't want to do and then let your leaders shine a little bit.
Speaker 2:Give them the shine they deserve that, and if you don't get any, that's all right, so be it Like seriously that may not have been your work.
Speaker 1:The work may not have been working for the compliments. It may have been working to put the other ones in place.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's all the glory. That's right, that's right. But you know what I'm saying?
Speaker 1:that's actually just a good pastoral exercise to give other people glory. That's actually just.
Speaker 2:That's good for your soul yes, yeah, yeah, cool man, cool man so well.
Speaker 1:Tj dude, thanks for hanging out with us today. What again, 20 years in? We've got a couple other folks that are coming on in the next few weeks. What is something wise? That if you could look back and give to somebody who is in their first two to five years of ministry, what, from your 20 years of experience, would you be? Like man this is. There's a lot of things that people will say and heard, but this is like stuck with you either that you've heard or learned or held the most like. What is something that, like you, would want them to have and hold on to.
Speaker 2:Number one don't give up. Don't give up no matter the situation.
Speaker 1:No quitters, no quitters.
Speaker 2:God will provide, he will, he'll preserve. Yeah, he'll take care of you. Number two find a family, a team of youth pastors to surround yourself with you can't do this alone. I'm telling you, I spent too much time trying to do it by myself, without some supportive friends around me. And once I found those, those key people and I'm not just talking about mentors, I'm talking about just camaraderie- you know, spending time with them. They're going through the same thing. They will have the wisdom.
Speaker 1:That community of calling, others that share that community of calling find it fight for it and make time for it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and then, um, find mentors you know. At the same time, find if at least one person you can go sit down with that is ahead of you, ahead of you. That's done longer, better, whatever, um, whatever that looks like for you, be humble be, teachable, and this is big Read your word, spend time in prayer. That will sustain you longer than anything, obviously, but I think—.
Speaker 1:Even more than more kids at camp this year than last year. That won't sustain you.
Speaker 2:Maybe, yeah, you're right, and it sounds so cheesy it really does Read. It sounds so cheesy Like it really does Like, read your Bible and pray. But a lot of us get caught up in just being busy and just the commonality of what we're doing and it's easy to take our eyes off of what's really important and to think that we can do this on our own. And I've gotten caught up in that myself, being honest, and it's a fast fall, like it really is. You've got to have him every single day. So, yeah, Um, stay teachable, stay humble. Find a, find a community of, of like-minded people. Um, believers, uh, use pastors. Find a mentor, stay strong. Don't give up. Um, I've got too much stuff here, don't I?
Speaker 1:No, that's perfect man, that's perfect man Grow a beard grow a beard. Grow a beard, it's the word to put them. Gray hairs.
Speaker 2:There you go yeah.
Speaker 1:Yes, yes.
Speaker 2:Thank you. Thank you for having me Dude Absolutely this is amazing dude, so good a snack. I'll give you some more kid. Oh yeah, you promise. Oh yeah, okay, thank you.
