Youth Ministry Booster
Welcome to the Youth Ministry Booster podcast! The most honest and hilarious podcast in student ministry. Hosted by Zac Workun and Chad Higgins. We are the biggest fans of youth ministry leaders like you!
We are here for you with the humor and the help to engage, entertain, equip, and encourage.
Youth ministry is better together. Learn more @ http://www.youthministrybooster.com
Youth Ministry Booster
Youth ministry, I'm called to this! 20 years of wisdom w/ Josh White
How do you know you are called to this thing called youth ministry?
Special guest alert w/ Josh White, Executive Pastor and long-time friend of the podcast, who shares his remarkable journey into ministry. Josh's path to ministry was far from the conventional seminary path, and his story is a testament to the power of embracing the long game (see told you! long game, short season = youth ministry)
Anybody else's kids answer the door shirtless?
Transitioning churches can be challenging and revelatory. Josh opens up about his own experience after moving to his new church and new role. He shares how leaving a comfortable, deeply connected environment after eight years brought fresh perspectives and new opportunities.
The next part of the conversation examines the complexities and growth that come with change, highlighting the importance of being open to new blessings in both personal and professional realms. Josh's reflections offer valuable lessons on recognizing God's work in different settings and the importance of adaptability in ministry.
How has youth ministry changed?
With 2 decades of experience Josh provides insights into how shifts in student participation and engagement have shaped new ministry approaches. The emphasis is now in work of aligning student activities with the broader church mission. Moreover, we need to double our efforts towards consistent and effective communication between youth ministers and senior leadership.
Want to learn more from and about Josh follow him on IG @r3d.b3ard or connect with him through his church https://arrowheights.org/leadership/
A snap me. No, this is josh white, everybody, josh white in the garage. How are you, buddy? I'm good dude. How are you, dude? So good to see you, so good to have you. Uh, no, we are not related. Real quick for the camera, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope. But a little bit related in the lord, but, uh, that's right. Uh, this is my buddy, my brother john, my brother josh white, that's right, what's up?
Speaker 1:man, how are you doing today? I'm doing good, man, how are you? I'm good, I good. We are glad that you are here. We're still on Chadcation, and so we have some guests in the garage, and so today, reaching out to a Tulsa friend who's bringing the wisdom and the experience and adjusting all of our pay raises Executive.
Speaker 2:Pastor.
Speaker 1:Josh the Executive.
Speaker 2:Pastor. Now I do have a question. Is this the first time an Executive Pastor has been on the Youth Ministry Booster Podcast?
Speaker 1:It is the first time that an executive pastor has been on the podcast while they were executive.
Speaker 2:Some have gone on to greatness to do many things, but you have returned from the mountain.
Speaker 1:I will say when you sent me the text it's time.
Speaker 2:I was like for lunch or coffee, or to reply to the last text that you never replied to Right, so five months ago. But then I was a little offended when you told me why and I was like well, now I feel old, like I can still wear a hat backwards, man, like come on.
Speaker 1:You're a man rolling in the flannel. No, josh, we go way back. We've been ministry friends for at least a decade, if maybe a little longer. We're getting there and again Tulsa area friends that are local coming to share. But one of the things that I've loved about you and we'll get into some of your ministry story in a little bit is that we've been both ministers and also dads together too. So real quick apology.
Speaker 1:Sorry that my youngest answered the door shirtless, it's okay, mine's probably shirtless right now, so you're in company, so so red-bearded men trying to raise sons in a crazy world, uh, but yes, uh, pretty much at our house afternoon when it gets hot outside, that's right. Gideon's just shirtless and sometimes forgets when he answers the door man, oh, I'll just tell you right now you're lucky he was clean like that.
Speaker 2:That was the biggest surprise, because mine you should have seen mine last night. I was. I mean, he's out playing. We've got a little green area across from the house, you know, and uh, the neighborhood kids are digging a hole in it. Yeah, I don't know how the homeowners association feels about it, but they're digging a hole and so he's out there by himself and I walked out there. I'm like, what is he doing? He's like like planking on the top of his his dirt mound.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I'm like, okay, that's dirt and there's a hot wheel bridge.
Speaker 2:Well, and then I realized it had rained. And so he walks over and he's just covered head to toe in mud.
Speaker 1:That does not look like mud.
Speaker 2:Oh.
Speaker 1:That good, that good. Oklahoma red clay mud, yeah, yeah, boy dad stories man.
Speaker 2:Boy dad stories. We are packed with it Because you've got three 14, 11. I've got three 14, 11, and 7.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so you, you're living into the throes of middle school and preteen ministry.
Speaker 1:And so yeah, bud, Well, youth ministry friend, one of the things that's been so fun is to get to know you through different churches and positions. Like friendship with you has been great because we literally have been friends in ministry even beyond, like jobs or roles. Like I feel like sometimes you'll have a friend in ministry where you're like well, you know, I used to meet coffee with this guy or whatever. But change of churches, change of roles and you're now serving from youth ministry to executive pastor Yep, that's right.
Speaker 1:And so part of what we wanted to ask you about is a little retrospective on your time in student ministry. But before we get to where you are now, dude, take us into, like, what got you into student ministry, because one of the things that I know to be true for you is that you didn't start out as like the Bible college kid who had that summer camp Church was a thing, but you were not the summer camp candidate into the. Yeah, take us on the journey.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so uh, I like to joke that God plays a long game. Okay Cause.
Speaker 1:I and I honestly.
Speaker 2:I got started in ministry late and so, like you've known me the entire time I've been in ministry and that's kind of I started in ministry and that next season we did a youth ministry event together and so that's kind of how all this got kicked off, and so you've never really not known me out of ministry.
Speaker 1:Well, that's right. It's hard to remember because it's like, oh, you know, this isn't. He did other stuff, but I've always known you as the guy doing.
Speaker 2:she jokes that she married a pharmacist.
Speaker 1:Okay, like graduated high school I was promised a pharmacist.
Speaker 2:She was Like we got married and then three months later I was like I can't do this the rest of my life and I started digging ditches and so worked for a utility excavation contractor for like eight years after that.
Speaker 1:I think we know where your son gets it. He does that comes by. Hold on, dad, before we throw judgment around.
Speaker 2:I was muddy before he was muddy. That's exactly right, and so I. That's what.
Speaker 1:I, I wanted you to go out and critique his hole. I wanted you to go out and be like actually my man Well.
Speaker 2:I would lie if I told, if I didn't say, that I hadn't gone out and critiqued a little bit.
Speaker 1:I mean like let's work on your technique bro.
Speaker 2:You can dig a bigger hole if you do this.
Speaker 1:That's yeah, man, I I a big farmer to big digging, that's right, yeah, I dug ditches for eight years.
Speaker 2:Uh, I've got literally.
Speaker 1:Like some people joke about that, like my daddy would be like oh yeah, man, if you want this, you can. Oh no, you literally dug ditches, I can dig a hole.
Speaker 2:That's exactly right with a shovel, excavation equipment like all that kind of good stuff. We drove big trucks. It was a man job right if ever there was a man, job, that was it, so leave your boots outside it was a great experience. I felt like I needed to go back to school, so I got a degree in environmental, health and safety management from NSU Okay.
Speaker 1:I know right, I know right, it's a dig-ditcher-twice-educated, my man, my man. Okay, that's right.
Speaker 2:And so during that time I was serving at a church, just doing volunteer stuff, they often joked, uh, to my dismay, that I was the official unpaid associate. So I'd spend you know 50 hours working secular job and then come and spend 15, 20 hours just because I loved it, like I'd go to camp every year, take a week off without pay Uh, this was this was pre-kids.
Speaker 1:Oh, you were like. You were like one of the ones that we all wanted. Yeah, I would.
Speaker 2:I would love to have five of me.
Speaker 1:Is that? Narcissistic to say I mean you know, it's a little bit of considering just knowing how much value, but I think also that's probably a superpower of knowing what got you that level of involved, Because I think for some folks it's always like how do I get more out of my folks? Sure, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:And so I was always, always volunteering, doing something. Uh, and in that time like felt the Lord called me to ministry. Uh, you know, went through the whole thing. It wasn't a, it was like one of the last years they did uh, yec in Norman, like.
Speaker 2:I just remember we went I was volunteer for the student event and one of our interns that they said hey, we want everybody to, uh, who feels called to ministry right now to stand up. We want to pray for you. And the kids next to me stood up and I just remember thinking like that should be me, like that should be me, and so I'm like what is this I did?
Speaker 1:I was, I was a leader. That's exactly right.
Speaker 2:That's exactly right so uh, so I you know I didn't stand up. I didn't stand up Cause I was like man, I need to wrestle with this. I was raised in church. My dad was in ministry every different facet of ministry that you can so in a lot of ways I felt like I was running from it Hindsight, I don't think I was and I don't question the Lord's timing in any of that but didn't feel the need to jump right into anything full-time at the moment.
Speaker 2:Felt like God had work to do in my heart and to prepare me for Uh, and so spent uh, still continued digging ditches you know, finishing my bachelor's degree and, um, the guy that I was serving with uh at the church in Bixby, uh that I was at, he left and they asked me to take his spot and so I was like, wait, you're going to, you're going to pay me to do this.
Speaker 1:Heck yeah, like sign me up. I was already going to camp on vacay days, now that gets to be my actual vacay.
Speaker 2:That's right.
Speaker 1:That's right, let's go Camp is not a vacation. That's right, we're going to cut that from the podcast.
Speaker 2:Yeah, camp is not a vacation. I don't care where you go, sorry.
Speaker 1:A little youth pastor no-transcript. Like it's a deeply committed one, not even like half casual yeah.
Speaker 2:With, with, with some sensitivity to asking volunteers. I think it really hindered me in a lot of ways as a student pastor because I was like I don't, I know what it takes.
Speaker 1:I don't want to ask people you know, and so.
Speaker 2:But then it was like the Lord just had given me that perspective and so leaned into it. It's like you can do this, Like you guys can. You guys can jump in full bore and just go to town. And so, yeah, yeah, started in ministry and never looked back, okay.
Speaker 1:So tell us a little bit cause. Again, it's been a decade or more. Where was, was there like a moment or a pivot Cause? I think everybody always starts like full flush all things like has there been a notable pivot or season in your life? Maybe a couple even were, like ministry got refined in a really key way. Like, what were some of the things? Not necessarily, I mean, we'll talk about some life wisdom stuff later but just like for someone that had been doing it for a decade, what are some of the things that became maybe not initially the most important but like evidently the more you did it, the more you're like man, this is the thing that I've got to be doing.
Speaker 2:Sure. So a pivotal moment I think would have been in the transition from that church that I was at. I've been serving there for eight years, six years volunteering.
Speaker 1:Volunteering into staff Two years.
Speaker 2:So there's a lot of relational equity, a lot of history, yeah and so the transition from there to where I'm at currently, arrow Heights. I've been there for eight years. It's a fantastic place. They pay me to say that.
Speaker 1:Yeah. And so or I pay me to say that. I get paid to say that. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:We can cut that too. But I think in that transition really one it honed just what the call was for me Because, you know, the first two years I'd already been their volunteer. I knew the kids, knew the church it's such a special, special place for us as a family and so I stepped into that role. But in so many ways I was handicapped and couldn't own it because I'd always been there.
Speaker 1:Prophet is hometown a little bit. Yes, yes, you were almost too known to know different, or whatever the phrase might be, and I'd been so a part of the ministry leading up to that point.
Speaker 2:It was my ministry, and so I hadn't really convictionally been able to lead in any areas. It's not a bad thing.
Speaker 1:You hadn't had to make the big change because it was always like your thing. That's different when you have to, like, make a change, that somebody else had been doing something, those first edits that weren't your call, yeah.
Speaker 2:Well, and here's the reality of that and I think I really see the Lord working in all of that because the like probably three months before I I got the opportunity to talk to Arrow Heights, I had pitched a a change in programming for the student ministry. That was completely different. I felt like the Lord was leading me that direction and leading us as a church that direction and I got met with like there was this just anxiety from all our leadership.
Speaker 2:Not church leadership, but my adult leaders my sponsor help my volunteers, and so there was some pushback and I was like, well, I started to question, I was, I was like man, I don't know if I can do this. And then and it's funny because I was talking to you the night before- arrow heights called me and you're like are you live for here? I remember like they, like I just remember standing in the parking lot.
Speaker 2:Well, it was comfortable, right which, which was my downfall, right, but we're standing in the parking lot after this, after after our D now, and you're like are you a life friend? I'm like man, I'm going to be here for 30 years, the next day, the next day I get a call and they're like hey, we want to talk to you about this. And I even told my my senior pastor at the time. He's like hey, man Arrow Heights called me. I'm going for the free lunch.
Speaker 1:Like just to connect, don't worry about it, just want to see what they're doing, you know, like it's something. Yeah, yeah, well, especially across town too. That's all.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, well it wasn't that far, it wasn't far enough.
Speaker 2:It was close, four miles one way as opposed to the other. But, um, what, what's beautiful about that? And and I didn't know really the reasons why the transition happened. In a lot of ways, it was more like the opportunity came, uh, didn't feel the need to say no and really we just prayed Lord, until you take it off the table, we're going to walk in that direction, my wife and I, and so we did. We walked through that transition. It was a good transition both sides. When I stepped into that role at Arrow Heights, they were hungry for change, and so I was like I have this idea and they were like let's do the thing, do your idea, and I was like thank you, lord.
Speaker 2:Like you know, and so it was really a beautiful, beautiful transition. And the ministry at Riverview like excelled because I left, like it's as much of an ego hit as that is, it's like you've got to understand that the God is working on both sides of that and it was just. It was just, and so when you talk about pivotal times, I think that is probably one of the most memorable that.
Speaker 2:I can really tangibly see God working to bring me to that and hone and sharpen a lot of what I was doing in ministry. And so what was the next part of your question? I think it was.
Speaker 1:Well, but that's. But. I think I want to just kind of punch in on that though, because I do think, for some folks that may be in this season, are coming out of a position into another position or out of a season to another season, man, please be careful, men and women, to not miss what could be learned.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Um, that that's one thing. I you are not going to be somewhere forever. And that's what I love about your story is that you'd kind of been like chalked up, like I'm just going to be here forever. I volunteered here.
Speaker 2:I served.
Speaker 1:Here Again, great church of means great location. Your whole family was loved, and so you had just kind of framed it up in one way. And then sometimes the teacher of experience for the thing that you can only learn by being somewhere else, and that's for anybody that's contemplating a job change or experiencing a job change, or even thrust into a job change man. The only way that it could be 100% negative is that there was nothing learned from it, from what this new thing might bring, and if you're not taking notes or whatever along the way, don't miss the opportunity for what the change could bring.
Speaker 2:I think it's an important piece. Oh, that's huge. That's huge, and don't miss the blessings that can come, even just as a family. That you might be surprised by it. Yeah, and there's, there's small things in those transitions too that, uh, if you're paying attention, you can see how the Lord's working leading up to that. Like even six months before it was even opportunity like our kids had gone to Arrow Heights as pre-K, like it was close to the house and so, driving away in the pre-K of the next church, lara and I would leave and we'd go Friday day, date you know had Fridays off.
Speaker 2:So we dropped the kids off at Wee and we're driving out of the parking lot one day and just randomly like everything's fine at Riverview, everything like we're happy, we're loving, loving what God's doing, and she says you know, if we weren't on staff at Riverview, I think Arrow Heights would be a cool church to try out.
Speaker 2:And I was like yo, that's a weird thing to say, and then just kind of walked on like didn't even, didn't even engage, and then six months later it's like here we are, and so it's don't miss those opportunities, because I think God's doing something bigger, even when we're not watching.
Speaker 1:So Okay, opportunities changes. Student ministry you have been a part of the thing of working with teenagers for the next generation in various capacities for almost 20 years. What's changed and what hasn't changed, like? What are the things? And I ask it because we're in a really delicate chapter of ministry. We talked about it with our folks. Longtime listeners know that I'm adamant that there's like three or four key years that shift in youth ministry. There's those early 2000s of post-9-11 youth ministry. There's the 2011, 2012 of like cell phone ministry, 2016 of social media ministry and then now 2020 of COVID ministry. So there's some external influences. But, as someone who's thoughtful and careful and creative in ministry, what's changed and what hasn't changed for teenagers?
Speaker 2:Man, it's a great question. I think the biggest thing that I've perceived just in the last last 10 years, decade of ministry, I think, is you don't have as many casual students showing up. Okay and so, and that's a positive and a negative Less socializing, less socializing.
Speaker 1:Socialized student ministry. Yeah Well, it's not as convenient to be a part of a church and this goes.
Speaker 2:This is across the board. This isn't just student ministry, this isn't just adults or kids Kids don't necessarily have a choice in it but I think really the biggest shift that I've seen. You know and you've got all the Barna research and all that saying people are leaving the church in droves. Well, I think the reality is people are just being honest about their convictions and their calling.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Like we see, they probably weren't even like wholehearted there anyway.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Like their butts may have left the pew, yeah, but they probably weren't committed either way. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:And so I think I think that's probably been the biggest shift, both the positive and negative, because you want everybody there, that you can get everybody to be in a position where they can hear the gospel preached and see the multitude changed lives and yet, you know, the kids that I have at Arrow Heights had, have, still, have, still have different capacity.
Speaker 1:I yeah, uh, I know, aren't they always yours? They're always. They're always. They're my kids.
Speaker 2:They're always gonna be yours, they're my kids and really the transition got weird whenever I realized that they actually could have been my kids. Like they could be my kids.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you do it long enough. You talk about pivotal moments like oh wait oh, that's not cool yeah, when you go from big brother to like like father, father figure, you're like, oh yeah, yeah, all right, okay, yep.
Speaker 2:Yep, so, um, I think that's, that's really one of the been one of the most, uh, it's, it's slightly disheartening because you don't have the numbers right. We, we, we see numbers so quickly.
Speaker 1:Well, but say it for those Across the board. I think there is something to that, like there is a settling of a new normal, that again and it's not that your ministry may have even less effectiveness or energy, it may just be that that loose socializing social light bandwidth circle radius may be different.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, you're exactly right, and what I love about that is if, in one sense, it frees you up to hone in on the kids that you have. Uh and so, uh, I love seeing kids walk in the door and you're like I know they want to be here. You know, it's not just there. The parents are dropping them off, saying we're going to go go on a date for two hours. Uh, it's like like these kids are showing up and they're, they're participating.
Speaker 1:Like it's in a sea of opportunities. You chose this yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah. So I think that's one of the biggest shifts. I mean, we can talk all day long about you know, mental health stuff. And I just finished, uh, Abigail Schreier's bad therapies.
Speaker 1:Okay, yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, you know, it was so enlightening and so helpful just to have that perspective, and so that's a whole other, probably a whole other podcast, but I think that's been the biggest shift that I've seen personally at Arrow Heights and I know it's different, but that can be a pressure on a youth minister that was again.
Speaker 1:So now in this role, one of the conversations that we hope comes out of this podcast is continuing conversations with our senior leadership about some of these realities, for the ways in which things have changed, acknowledging that there is change and ministry will be done in a different way because of these changes. But for those that we because you now have youth and kids staff that report to you Pastor.
Speaker 2:No, no, actually the way we separate dynamics is all ministerial staff report to our lead pastor.
Speaker 1:I get everybody else but you but you're now weighing in on other ministries from a different angle, and so there's something to something to like how do we grade things when you sit with senior pastor?
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I've got to. I've got to. I've got to be cautious about that, right Like this transition has been so enlightening to me. Yeah, stepping out of the role, staying in the same church, having to watch somebody new come in and and he's got my kids.
Speaker 1:Caretake your field.
Speaker 2:He's got my kids right Like but but really the perspective I've tried to take and I've tried to explain to to him and he's doing a fantastic job. If he's listening to this like a fantastic job killer, uh, but I've really tried to um hold it loosely okay, like this is not my, my job to lead this ministry in the way that I've led it in the past.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I can lead from a more of a support role, which I love, being able to just blow wind into his sails and hopefully, uh, encourage as much as I can. Yeah, and give as much input as what he's willing to take. Yeah, and not not more than I want to give you know you know it's kind of take a step back, but uh, but I think it's been really sweet and so, like I don't, I hope I've done it well. Uh, but I want to.
Speaker 2:I want feedback on from him, from other leadership on if I've done it well.
Speaker 1:Done it well, Okay, Okay, what's something if you could go back again?
Speaker 1:You're doing the new thing now, executive pastor, but like for the retrospective, for those of us that are still in it or hoping to be in it for a long time, like what is the wisdom you would give someone who was starting out? One of the things that our team has noticed is that there's a growing number of new folks in ministry and many are called up from the ranks of those that are already a part of the church, either at an intern, interim or like volunteer level. Like your story is so near and dear to me, because as we go out and do training events and we sit and we have special conferences, that, for those that are new to ministry, I see a bunch of Josh whites that are like I was teaching and now I'm doing this, or like, um, you know, I was doing military stuff and then now I'm back and I look for a job. I love this church and they hired me and so I just what are the things that you would give advice, especially for someone that may be new to this and wasn't like Bible college pipeline one, two, three.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so hear me, and hear me now Stay in student ministry as long as you can, as long as you can, as long as you can. That's where all the fun is. It is and that's true Like I say that jokingly, but there's some truth to just the benefit that comes from longevity, and not just longevity in that ministry, but longevity at the same church. Uh, and so I get. There's reasons that shifts happen.
Speaker 2:I get that there's uh different callings that come and people make moves, but I think stepping into student ministry you've got to be giving it 100%, and it was. There was never any other option for me when I started. And of course I came into it late and so, like, like I've got to, I've got to have that perspective too. I wasn't a high school senior that graduated and just got thrown into it you know trial by fire. We hope he doesn't kill somebody. 19 running camp 22 running ministry.
Speaker 1:Yeah Like that.
Speaker 2:that's that scares me as an executive pastor. Uh, but, like, like, I think, like when I started in ministry, I had two kids already. Uh, I, I walked into it knowing what my priorities needed to be. Uh, and so, like you know the, the, the saying I use often is you've got to focus on your first ministry and so, uh, staying in as long as you possibly can.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Second thing focus on your family. Like your family is your first ministry your wife and your kids. You can find another church most of the time, but you can't rebuild your family and so make that your priority, and hopefully you're in a church that has that as their priority. I think if you go to any church, you need to ask those questions Like what is the expectation of my family, what's the expectation of my wife, uh, and so uh stay as long as you can.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, take care of your first ministry. And then, like convictionally, when, when one of the things that I, um, I wish I would have done and focused on a little bit better was finding ways to integrate our students with the rest of the church, and so we talked.
Speaker 1:Yeah, pre-show, we were talking a little bit about the changing nature of worship ministry and how, 20 years ago, the songs we sing in student ministry may have been different than those that we sing at, like you know, sunday worship, but the gap has narrowed, yeah, and that's kind of affected. That's kind of affected, that's got to affect and I think.
Speaker 2:I think that is so encouraging to me too. Yeah, Because, like we, we unintentionally, I think, I think, and I totally get the heart. I was there, I was raised in it but we have unintentionally built two churches on the same campus. You've got. You've got adult ministry 18 and up. They go to church on Sunday mornings, wednesday nights they start jam man it's going to be awesome.
Speaker 2:I'm trying to stick away stay away from Gen Z lingoes to sound too much like a dad, but we can do that. Like you can make a Wednesday night service, that is just awesome and kids are going to want to come back to it, but are they showing up on Sunday mornings? And so, like one of the things that I've done convictionally is anything we do on Wednesday night, I fight to keep it from competing with what we're doing on Sunday mornings as like an A-B test or whatever.
Speaker 1:That, whatever we do in students, is something specifically and uniquely for students and not in competition with yeah, because if we say we are discipling and leading the future church or the current church, depending on how you want to look at it.
Speaker 2:Uh, why would we not match what we're doing on Sunday mornings? And I'm not saying, if you've got just, I get it. I get the perception of Sunday mornings oftentimes can be.
Speaker 1:It's boring a little sluggish to change here's the deal.
Speaker 2:You will win over church leadership, your lead pastor worship pastor. If you're saying, hey, what we're doing on Sunday mornings it's okay. I want to affirm that on Wednesday nights.
Speaker 1:How can?
Speaker 2:I be a part of what we're doing on Sunday mornings so that our Wednesday nights can match. And so you can bring some of that, those new ideas, into Sunday mornings. You've got to be cautious with that. I mean, we're, we're very convictional with how we do stuff at Arrow Heights uh, in a good way, I think. But I think there's there's ways that you can translate that to Wednesday night that affirm what you're doing on.
Speaker 2:Sunday mornings, as opposed to compete with them. Uh, and so that's been that. That would be what I encourage. Uh, any new youth pastor, any new student minister, student leader, whatever, find ways that you can connect students to that sunday morning worship, because that's what you're graduating them to, and so that would be one thing.
Speaker 1:Let's see tell us a little bit more now that you're on this side of stuff. What are some ways that you would encourage youth ministers to connect or communicate with senior leadership more? I think that's one of those now kind of sitting on the other side of the table. I'm not sure how you all have your like sessions of like pastoral team and executive team and stuff, but like we hear story after story that like a youth minister maybe feels like unheard or didn't communicate enough or like man I thought things were going great. And then I had a meeting with my boss Like what are some of the ways, just like internally to the ministry or the operations of the church, that you would encourage youth ministers to not do differently but things to watch out for, maybe some unknowing blind spots? Now, having sat on both sides of the table, I think there's something to be said.
Speaker 2:You said communication right table. I think I think there there's something to be said. You said communication right Um, and this applies to student ministry when you're you're counseling kids, talking to kids about how to relate to parents, uh, they're in a phase of building trust right High school kids your freedom is directly proportional to to how much trust you have with your parents, or how much your parents trust you.
Speaker 2:Uh, and I think the same goes with student pastors. We, we have this uh, how much your parents trust you, and I think the same goes with student pastors. We have this knack for thinking of the crazy ideas and just flash in the pan, like we are, we think this is going to be awesome and then it falls flat. And really, if that had been communicated up the chain which I don't even like that term, like that, and that's a whole other beef that I've got philosophically, like, if you're a student pastor, you're one of the pastors of the church, and that there should not be this, this hierarchy that we have.
Speaker 1:we have established and that's that's a whole other that that is not for this podcast, but if you're there if you're fighting middle management, I totally know where you are.
Speaker 2:Yeah, zach, can give you my phone number. Let's go get coffee you can cry on. They don't so like. So, build trust, like like. Find ways that you can communicate with senior leadership. God, I hate that term.
Speaker 1:Sorry, we, we, we, we. I know Cause it's different, cause some people have like a senior pastor, yeah, Some people have an elder board. Some people have like says the guy with the title executive.
Speaker 2:I know, I know.
Speaker 1:Sorry, you forgot your tie at home. Yeah, that's right, that's right.
Speaker 2:But, like, I think there's ways that you can build trust. Part of it is most often the guy that's in the lead, that is called to lead that church has more experience most of the time, and so find ways that you can tap that.
Speaker 1:Like, even if you don't take everything that they're trying to encourage you to do, like, just try to build a relationship Even if you don't heed it, hear them out, but also like communicate everything that they're trying to encourage you to do like just just try to build a relationship. Hear them out, even if you don't heed it hear them out, yeah, yeah, but.
Speaker 2:But also like communicate everything that you're doing. Like even if they don't want to hear it like at least you tried and you can only like that's. That's one thing, like you can take care of thing that you can to communicate with them.
Speaker 1:So that's an important word. Again, we made the joke about writing up the emails, but sometimes those communication receipts, of putting out the word. Again, it's the newsletter, right, like, yes, is everybody reading it? No, but was there a centralized place that information could be found? And, man, that seems really important for the busier. That everybody gets that you would be a consistent force of trustworthy communication. Don't have the meetings always be on the back of the thing when something went wrong.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Please.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yes, yes, and I think well, yeah, I could say a whole lot more.
Speaker 1:Let's say more. We could go hours Over here, over here.
Speaker 2:No, I think, even just from a leadership side of things like looking I almost said looking down, zach pull me back from the ledge, bro.
Speaker 1:This is see, I'm already putting myself in that position and, like I'm probably going to hate me, josh, this table is round, buddy, we're all around this table, that's right.
Speaker 2:Like I really hope that churches more lean that direction eventually, like it's from a leadership perspective, like this roundtable discussion of hey, we're all in this together.
Speaker 1:Like it's teamwork.
Speaker 2:And I get. If you're in a huge church, that doesn't always work. I mean, you've got a hierarchy that's you can't communicate to the many the same way that you can communicate to the few, and so take that into consideration. Arrow Heights is in a different context than other churches and so, if you're about where we are, we've got four pastors, two ministers. We can all sit in the same room, two or three times a week and and communicate and it works.
Speaker 1:Uh, that is that's. You can traverse the hallway. Yeah, that's right. Yeah, that's right. So what? What is something? Uh, again, what is something? Maybe that you would this side of the table? 20 years of volunteering lead in different places. Where do you feel like some youth ministers put more energy than they should like if you were going to as someone workout, buddy, whatever we're always looking for ways to trim, maximize efficiency.
Speaker 1:What is some of the not wasted effort? But if we only have so much time, what are some of the maybe the trim, the fat things that folks either get, maybe too worked up about, as someone who is one of us, but seeing it from a different angle give us some wisdom.
Speaker 2:So I'll give you some wisdom from when I was in that position.
Speaker 1:In that position, but you've also known a bunch of us and one of the things that I love about the state of Oklahoma and the community of Tulsa. There is a daggum bunch of youth ministry folks and most of us are friends, and so we've all got a little bit of listening ears. So we won't call out names, but just from from the folks that we've seen, heard and know help us trim the fat.
Speaker 2:Uh, so you're a camp guy. I love camp. You're a camp guy.
Speaker 1:I love camp.
Speaker 2:I'm not a camp guy. Like I love camp and I will I will agree with you that it is the most concentrated time that you'll have with your students over the course of the year. It is a fantastic opportunity.
Speaker 1:OJ concentrate.
Speaker 2:It is such a fantastic opportunity to minister in a confined space, but it should not be the thing. This is my opinion.
Speaker 1:I like it. I like it, and here's why.
Speaker 2:After camp and I don't know, maybe you've talked about this on the podcast. After camp kids come back and they're like that was so great, let's make it like this all the time, Like after camp. Kids come back and they're like that was so great, let's make it like this all the time. And you're just like no Christianity, like there's something to be said for living life in the mundane, knowing how to follow Christ when things are just meh.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Like and pursuing him and attempting to delight in him in that context that's not in a camp setting. Yeah Again, camp's great, it's great. But if you're going to put all your eggs in one basket, I would say focus on the small.
Speaker 2:Like focus on what you've got going week in, week out, building relationships with your kids in a way that you're building trust with them so that whenever you don't even have to be pointing them to the gospel at that time, but you're building a relationship with them such that whenever stuff does go crazy at home, at school, work, whatever they know who to trust, they know who they can come to to trust. And so I would err on the side of focusing on the small, what you got going on at your local church.
Speaker 1:Making the most of the ordinary time, absolutely.
Speaker 2:And presenting that as real.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:Because if we are always moving from event to event to event, I get it.
Speaker 1:I know there's event guys Again. We've Some people do events so many weeks in a row that it actually becomes the regular thing, Maybe so I don't know.
Speaker 2:But then are you competing with your morning worship?
Speaker 1:See, there's your checks and balances. Right yeah, with your morning worship.
Speaker 2:Here's your checks and balances right, so that would be probably the biggest impartation of wisdom that. I can dump on people, even if you do love camp, even if you focus on that and you put all your eggs in that basket don't neglect it midweek, so that would be probably the biggest.
Speaker 1:Or at least have enough in the tank that you're still excited about. Oh, absolutely I think that's probably man. One of the things that is true time and again is that so much of this stuff, you know, bubbles over, overflows and that usually most folks rise to meet your energy versus falling to.
Speaker 1:you know they fall to where you're at instead of rising, or whatever the right terminology of flow is, but for so many like man, have enough in the tank that each week after week, that the obedience to choose and to follow is still fresh and new. That's huge. For our liturgical friends, the ordinary part of the calendar is the biggest part of the wheel, that's right. The green is the largest slice of pie, that's right.
Speaker 2:That's right. The green is the largest slice of pie. That's right. That's right. No, you're exactly right, or you know? One option would be to make camp boring.
Speaker 1:Or make camp boring, yeah, hey, man, we call those retreats. I love those too. I love those too, yeah.
Speaker 2:We almost did one together. That's right. It did never work out. It was too boring.
Speaker 1:It was too boring. It was too boring.
Speaker 2:We were too bored with it before you even prepped it. That's right.
Speaker 1:We had hammocks and we were ready. We were just going to literally get away. We were literally going to get away. I do want to brag on you. This is one of my favorite things about you. You were the first person that I knew that had installed in their youth room hammock clips, and so for your kiddos that were crunching granola that wanted a little. This is like 2017, 2018.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, that wanted a little. This is like 2017, 2018, that you had installed like the.
Speaker 1:D-rings or whatever that they could bring their Eno's or whatever. So just again, sometimes the restful might be as creative as the energy.
Speaker 2:Well, and we're not going to say what those were used throughout the week for, so there may have been some selfish motivation. That's exactly right, that's okay. I say it as the guy in charge now. Yeah, you can do it. That's good. Not in charge. Not in charge.
Speaker 1:Well, my brother, what is on the way out? What is something for the sake of student ministry? The reminders today for family and first ministry take us back to the beginning that God plays in the long game. What is a way that you would want us to remember that Like? What is something from your story, from your time in ministry? Help remind us, or maybe in your like, how do you remind yourself that God plays in the long game?
Speaker 2:Man, I think we had a question posed to me this week. You know how does a passage like Matthew 7, 24 through 27, I think the houses on the sand on?
Speaker 1:the rock. How does?
Speaker 2:that prepare us for parenting?
Speaker 2:How does that prepare us to become parents?
Speaker 2:And one of the ways I answered that question was the foundation you're laying right now prepares you for whatever ministry you're going to be doing five, 10 years down the road, whatever parenting you're going to be doing five, 10 years down the road. And so, uh, focus now on the foundation, convictionally that you feel the Lord is, is, is leading you to, and have a long term goal, like, like don't, don't just see ministry as we have a tendency to. I have a tendency to be very reactive, uh, to be, uh, flying by the seat of my pants, and the bad thing is I do it really well, but I don't think that's what God's called us to. And so the more proactive you can be in your own personal spiritual life, the better pastor, minister, student, ministry leader you're going to be, and so I think that that's really what the Lord's even been teaching me recently you know in a position that I've got a lot of spinning plates, the more proactive from a foundational perspective that I can be, the better so love it, man.
Speaker 1:Well, for folks that wanted to connect with you more, you offered to throw out uh, coffee or whatever, what. What are social or email or other connective ways for folks that are more about you?
Speaker 2:so my, my social handles are weird it's just red beard, red.
Speaker 1:You can go to zach. Golly, you got. How'd you get that one? I want that one. Well, it's weird, there's threes, there's threes for the E's oh okay. So yeah, we've been tagging the show notes too. But red beard, that's right red beard on Instagram. I'm not on Snapchat, that's it's not, I'm 40, it's a personal choice. That's right. It's just, I don't have to. I'm not in student ministry anymore, right.
Speaker 2:You can find the church website and hit me up email and Zach can give you my number, Okay.
Speaker 1:So hey, and I will. I'm happy to.
Speaker 2:No my my cell phone, like my wife is. She hates this, but like I don't mind, I give myself to anybody Ministry inbox yeah, that's right, that's right.
Speaker 1:Well, brother, thank you so much. Always good to have not just friends but brothers on the show too. So, for everybody else, we'll see you back next week with more guests. Snap, hey, everybody. Thanks for listening to this episode of the Youth Ministry Booster Podcast. If you want to learn more, check the show notes below or visit youthministryboostercom to learn how you can join a collaborative and caring community of fellow youth ministers for this next season. Hope you enjoyed your listening, but also know that we've got big fans and supporters boosting you and your ministry. Leave us a rating and review and we'll see you back next week.
