Youth Ministry Booster
Welcome to the Youth Ministry Booster podcast! The most honest and hilarious podcast in student ministry. Hosted by Zac Workun and Chad Higgins. We are the biggest fans of youth ministry leaders like you!
We are here for you with the humor and the help to engage, entertain, equip, and encourage.
Youth ministry is better together. Learn more @ http://www.youthministrybooster.com
Youth Ministry Booster
The Youth Ministry Art of Engaging Middle School Boys
Question...which zoo animal would be the ultimate pocket-sized companion?
There is a right answer, but we want to hear yours...
Join Zac and Chad as they swap stories that will crack you up and maybe even crack the code on connecting with middle schoolers (read:boys).
In this episode, we don't shy away from the pressing questions- like whether gaming streams are the new radio or if there's a method to the madness of K-pop fandom. It's an honest ride through how relational connections are really made.
Today's conversations get deep as we explore what drives us to grow and who we trust with our future. So, whether you're in ministry, passionate about youth engagement, or just looking for a blend of banter and wisdom, pull up a chair for an episode that promises to enlighten as much as it entertains.
Hey, we're back with another episode of the Youth Mr Booster podcast. My name is Zach Workin, coming to you, live from the garage with my best friend, chad Higgins yeah, he's here too. He's here too. We're all gangzall here. The gangzall here, the best two of us. We're all here. It's crazy, we're all here, it's great. We're here in the garage, me, it's you, it's the producer. You can't see, but we are really in a silly mood. I apparently Chad, didn't know that.
Speaker 2:Well, we both have questions that we love to ask students. So one of the things we're just finishing up D now stuff which thank you to anybody, everybody and anybody that would invite guys like us to come share with their students on a given weekend. Bless y'all, bless y'all for asking. But one of the things that, being the random 40-year-old guy that they don't know, is, you want to connect with the students. Much of that happens beyond just the talk, like if you, if you, were ever asked to come speak somewhere, I have found personally that you often win the room well before you ever hop up on stage because, like, they want to feel a personal connection to you and what you're about, way more than just like you can talk was good.
Speaker 1:Talk was good.
Speaker 2:That's like a byproduct or a fruit of like. I trust this person and so, anyway, we were asking each other what do you ask to make connections with the folks that you might not know well enough to ask? So, Chad Higgins, what do you sometimes ask?
Speaker 1:So one of the things I do this isn't a question, but you were just talking about like connecting with students, especially if you're the guest speaker. So one of the things I do, you know, you know this about me. I will. I will take my chess board. I have a traveling chess board and I'll just stomp students all day long.
Speaker 2:It's big facts that if he's ever showing up, especially at camps, when you have multiple days, the weekends don't have as tricky because it's really only especially if they're in and out of like a venue. But if you were like living in community at camp Chad will set up in the cafeteria of your camp area and host just chess massacre of just taking out students, you would have like a four day system. Do you want to share your four day system?
Speaker 2:I mean of what you do to build community by breaking down students. I mean, it basically is what camp does anyway, but you do it through the means of chess I have.
Speaker 1:I will say that in my years of doing this I have been I've been beaten one time by a student. There was a kid in Florida that got me one game.
Speaker 2:Yes, but his name was Magine Tarkelson. No, he wouldn't stop me.
Speaker 1:So day one I just set up my board and just see what happens. I know holds bar on them.
Speaker 2:I play, I'll play. Are you hustling them? Are you like $5 a game?
Speaker 1:No, no no, they're so batting but, I will. I will play a lot of really dirty traps. Oh then, most of them don't know, I'll do that day one. Day two of camp Sweet Timmy just kidding, I'll play them without my queen which really starts to frustrate them.
Speaker 2:If you don't know, in chess queen is the most powerful piece. It would be like Chad winning with his arms and legs tied behind his back.
Speaker 1:So I'll play them that way and then still win. Yeah, I mean, most of these kids are middle school ruthless, and so then by that point I kind of know a lot of their own ability, and so I'll start pairing them with each other to fight each other and little ratings board or whatever yeah. It's really fun too, because it's a lot of the kids that don't normally engage in a lot of activity stuff and they have a great time at camp.
Speaker 1:But, beyond that, one of my questions that I love to ask and I've been asking for years into the room of middle school boys around the country, you and how many of your friends, inside of a completely empty gymnasium, would it take to take down a full grown African lion?
Speaker 2:So the question is the number of them. The assumption is that with enough of them they could yes.
Speaker 1:You and how many of your friends? No weapons, no weapons could take you in closure, in closure area.
Speaker 2:Like trap it or like take it out.
Speaker 1:You got to kill it.
Speaker 2:Oh my gosh, okay yeah.
Speaker 1:How many, how many would it take? The?
Speaker 2:thing that I have found to be true, grossly underestimating.
Speaker 1:No, Middle school boys far overestimate their own ability. Okay, okay, the amount of them that are like wow three, I'm like no Right, you mean my buddy.
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, I got Kevin over here. He benches like 85 pounds.
Speaker 1:He benches it.
Speaker 2:He'd get the bar. I mean, he's six feet tall. What about you.
Speaker 1:You have any questions you like to ask them.
Speaker 2:I mean, I always ask the pop culture stuff Like what are you gaming right now?
Speaker 1:What are you watching?
Speaker 2:My thing is like you've got to like jump the assumption Like they are playing something, they are watching something. So it's not like do you game Right, it's like what are you gaming right now? Or who are you watching? The who are you watching is my subtle Like. There's probably a person on like YouTube or Twitch they're following, and so I just want to know who like who you watching and just kind of learn some of that?
Speaker 1:Who are some of the names that a lot of them are saying right now?
Speaker 2:So because they don't know me, they give the safest answers, or whatever.
Speaker 1:Mr.
Speaker 2:Beast, mr Beast, or you know, some of the young guys will watch, like Barstool stuff or whatever. They're trying to figure out a way to connect with me, they're trying to size me up, or whatever.
Speaker 1:They're like what a 40 year old is, like Barstool you guys.
Speaker 2:You guys are like sports ball, yeah, and so I think there's some of that. But the thing is like you ask who man? It's all hyper unique man, like there's a couple of the gamer guys, that kind of cross over work, where they like they stream, but they also have like comment channels and stuff and so, more than anything, I just want to know, like kind of in their head, who's like forming those opinions, because we talked about it last year and training stuff and some of the podcasts here. Those are some of the youth pastor competition voices. Sure, more than like sports stars and mega celebrities are these people that are releasing like weekly streams or like 10 minute, you know, monologue videos, like those are the voices that they're, whether or not they know, and not even if they're like, well, this is a political person or this is like a spiritual authority, that's just the trusted voice in their life.
Speaker 1:Well, so if you are familiar and I know you are, but, like for listeners, if you're not, somebody on a gaming platform like Twitch or whatever you're watching them, a lot of those big time streamers. So they've started and I think some of it is just to give themselves more content without having to like spend a full nine hours in a video game. A lot of them will take an hour, if not more, of the very front of their stream as people are coming in and building the audience. Yeah, they'll just talk.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And so they won't jump into the game yet. Like I know that, like Tim does that. Yeah, doc does that, charlie does that, those kind of guys, they'll just sit and talk, I mean, and they'll even have like segments, right? Right when it's like well, we're going to do Wordle.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and you know what I mean. Together they're playing little mini games that are the thing, and it becomes this, like you know, like conversations come up right, like it's not just like that's. One of the things that's so fascinating about the gaming stuff right now is people aren't even watching some of the gaming stuff for, like gaming, level up, specific stuff. It is radio, like that's where I know we've talked about it as our training team that, like YouTube is the new network, tv man, some of that Twitch and whatever like, because I'm guilty of it, I'll put it on the background and it's almost like radio. You're just kind of like it's the voice that's just kind of like wafting in a little bit Well, and those in that front part too, when they're not playing a game.
Speaker 1:That's a lot of those kids best chance of getting noticed, Right Cause they'll actually read the comments.
Speaker 2:Yeah, they're reading.
Speaker 1:They're engaging with the chat. Yeah, if you're trying to get.
Speaker 2:Tim to reply back. That's the best time, and so so I'll ask about you know, some of the like, what they're interested. If it ever feels like I got a little bit of a thing going, I'll ask a little bit like riskier, like if you could get rid of an app or if, like, if you could make one band not exist, what would you hear?
Speaker 1:So it's not a lion for you? No, it's not a lion. What group of four people would you wipe out, get?
Speaker 2:this pop band out of here. I think there's like some of that like what a noise them. Like I'm always really curious about what a noise them. That's really telling sometimes.
Speaker 1:If you could take out one band, who would? Who would it be? Oh my gosh, I mean on the spot.
Speaker 2:I know I asked people on the spot I, I don't get K-pop, oh, I don't.
Speaker 1:Wow, that's not a band buddy, that's the entire genre In a country, in a country. I don't like their music.
Speaker 2:I'm mainly because I don't love. I don't love boy band stuff, right, and so the fact that there's like a proliferation of it in a language, that there's like a language barrier for it's like it's so much, it's like it is fun and it's so much fun and it's so much, I don't know there's, there's several I was going to say, but the new Ariana Grande is really good. Yeah, I don't know, I'm probably, probably I would say just boy band, k-pop, amazing. I just just I'm. I. My life is not better because it exists.
Speaker 1:Maybe for somebody else it's great, but for me, Middle school and high school, my mom to wake me and my brother up would play Kenny G. Yeah, I don't know if you've ever been woken up with.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:You just want that out of your world. Well, it's good.
Speaker 2:All right. What are some of the questions you asked?
Speaker 1:Some things you want the kids to know, so one of the questions I love asking if you could have any animal. Yeah, that was shrunk down to the size that would fit into your pocket. Oh, what animal would you want as a pet? Oh, okay, so like imagine you could have an elephant Tiny rhinos.
Speaker 2:Tiny rhinos. That would just say how fun would a tiny rhino be, bro, be the most fun.
Speaker 1:Can you imagine a like mouse size tiger, right Right that you could just put in your living room? And watch it like hunt down an actual mouse.
Speaker 2:Oh, yeah, that would be awesome Pouncing go.
Speaker 2:My personal answer to that question is orca, so I would love to have Just a fishbowl orca, a fishbowl orca, fishbowl orca Okay, that would be so cool, okay, okay, one of the questions always worth asking is best sandwich? Best sandwich? Mainly because they will think about it and it's funny to watch them think about, like, what is the because? Anytime that you can have them again, the questions don't always matter. The importance is high interest, low stakes, right, yeah, right, like a strong opinion about something that, like you know, orca, rhino both good answers, but like so what do you feel convicted about?
Speaker 1:If you are watching on the YouTube, I'm going to ask you, please leave in the comments Best sandwich. Are you asking like best sandwich place, like Subway or where's your journal?
Speaker 2:No, I'd like if you could put together the best sandwich. What is the best sandwich? Like, what are the ingredients? I mean, if it's from somewhere that everybody can have, please tell us yeah. But if you're like this, these are the things that make the best sandwich. Again, because it's like they get to imagine it most about Pooja, butter and jelly. I'm like, yeah, but like what kind of bread? And then that's where you're like oh, there's like elements to it, like you're going to, like you're kind of kind of stirring the creative juices.
Speaker 1:I like it, I like it, I like it. Yeah, so it's very good, very good. Those are some great questions. Took an act and you probably have some of your own.
Speaker 2:Well, but I think that's one of those and we've tried to do this a little bit. Even inside of our you've been a shabooster community. Like asking people to ask specific things of students, because I think one of the things that really qualifies as important small group training is helping them find ways inroads in Right, I think one of the things a small group leader has is commitment of time. But sometimes the tools to like how do I draw out like things that stir up, like you know, raw energy and emotion and kids Like what is I mean so much of it like we're just trying to like glaze over or maybe hopefully dig into content of like scripture and live and questions, but so much of life, like when you're laughing or like thinking creatively, those like little security barriers and shields of like can I share. Like when you're, when you're getting to think thoughtfully, creatively, you know, humorously, then you're way more opened up to talk about everything else. So it's okay.
Speaker 1:All right, so what? What is the meaty topic that we want to talk about?
Speaker 2:That's my question for you. A question for us is what do you do when you feel like you aren't good enough to do what you're doing? So this, this comes in popular conversation. There's a phrase imposter syndrome running around right now. The old language is when you feel like a poser.
Speaker 2:But I think for some of the people that we've talked with on the road in youth ministry, there is a sense that maybe, like whether it's age or this generation or this season of life, or maybe even the church that you're serving at, you're like I just don't know if I can, if I'm good enough, or if I don't feel like if I know what to do enough, and I just feel either feel stuck or I feel underprepared or under qualified, and so just that heavy feeling that may pass, it may come and go. I think sometimes you know like at some point you've got to do some things that you haven't done before or else you'll never do anything new. So I do think there's just a generic or general like part of growing is feeling like that. You don't always know what you're doing, because you're doing new things. But how do you wrestle with that when it's this weird blend of like I've been called to this and, man, I just feel like me and these kids aren't connecting like I hope that we would.
Speaker 1:So I have a bell curve Okay, that I think You're going graphs. Yeah, I think that what I've seen of a lot of ministers over the years I hide into this I kind of bell curve of. I think when we first get in ministry, in general, I think there is this feeling of insecurity, of like I don't know what this is going to look like, I don't know all that it's going to entail. I have a sense of dependency on the Lord and I think that for a lot of ministers who first get in, I think there is that connection between God and the work and all these things and it's exciting, it's new, all of that. And then, as we have more time go by and we've done camp now two or three times- right.
Speaker 1:We've become a little bit better at maybe like speaking on a Wednesday and-.
Speaker 2:I already had the parent packet ready for the parent meeting. Wow, thank you very much, sir. It was on the calendar already. Anytime you get to have the annual calendar where you're like, let's move it up a week, that's a good feeling, that's a good feeling yeah yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:I do think, though, that what I've noticed is, the more more our proficiency goes up, then our dependency not always, not for everybody, thankfully, but for some it can go down.
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 1:And I think that's when we get this drift between the work and what God is doing in our own lives and we become proficient at the task.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And I think those are the places where you start to feel like there isn't the imposter.
Speaker 2:Yeah. It's like I'm pretty decent at this, or I'm at least not a failure.
Speaker 1:Yes, yeah, and for a lot of guys they stop there. They just do what they know that they can do and they do the same type of ministry forever.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And that's okay. I think that there's probably a there's probably a deeper spiritual disconnection that I would want to address yeah, but then for some I think you do start to get into that imposter, to where it's like I'm trying new things, I'm putting it out there, we're trying to grow in some areas, and you start to do feel that imposter, and I think that this is where the bell comes back down, okay, is? I think? For some they just stay in that.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:The uncomfortableness of it and they're just trying to fight the battle on a proficiency level. Okay.
Speaker 2:Just more better do better, More, better, do better Instead of. I depend first.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and even in the work that you and I do okay, let's talk about that. And you start to get asked to come speak at bigger things.
Speaker 2:Sure.
Speaker 1:And more people in the room and a bigger task that's going to be on by more eyes and I think you can feel a sense of imposter in that. I mean even some of the people that we talk to, you, even us at times like you should write, but there's so many other problems. I think in that I think the knee jerk reaction is well then, I just need a better talk or I need to spend more time on this.
Speaker 2:I'll just try to be funny or faster, yeah.
Speaker 1:And, yeah, as we grow, hopefully the things that we do become better. My encouragement to us all is to come back to that same heart position as year one.
Speaker 2:They got you there yeah.
Speaker 1:The understanding that, yes, as we've been faithful with a few, god does open up more opportunity, but we can allow that bigger opportunity to be self inflating or self-destructing, yeah. Or we can realize that even in the midst of being proficient at something, there's still a sense of of desperation for him. Yeah, and I think when guys, the people that we would look to as going, wow, they get it. Yeah, over and over, I see them as people that realize that what they've been given, big or small, is 100% a gift to the Lord, is something to be thankful for.
Speaker 2:Well, and I think that's one of the reasons and you've heard us say it, we have friends on other podcasts that say it, ministry coaches will tell you this why your own personal devotion matters so much.
Speaker 2:It's not just to refill the tank with the good. I think it's to keep you humble by the new, because one of the things about youth ministry that is peculiar and important is that you are serving the same bandwidth of ages year over year, and so at some level, I hope that you have tuned what you're thinking, planning, doing for eighth, ninth, tenth graders. But it's our hope that in your 28, 38, 48 year old self, you are finding continuing ways to grow well beyond that, which means that you must be challenged, and often when we're challenged, we're humbled by the things that we're doing, and so I think making sure to have the spiritual challenge that's good and not just the professional challenge, because when you show up and you have been humbled by the word and then you're sharing something else with students that might be humbling for them, you know what it feels like.
Speaker 2:And I think that's the real disconnect is that it's not a superiority thing, it's an emotional recalibration. If you haven't been forgiven recently, then you might not know how to ask for forgiveness. This is the speck in the log thing of man. If you've been a professional Christian for 15 years, then the good news of Jesus and the grace of forgiveness may feel a little bit like. Well, that's what we do and I think that's where you've talked about it in one of our sessions this year so far in training stuff, the idea of the invitation coming from the text.
Speaker 2:It's been really interesting to watch youth mentors so I get to sit in the back while you lead that one. How, for so many of them they, I think, give the same invitation every time and don't let it draw. I mean, maybe there's a reason to give it the same way every time. Like you know, one of our ways that we follow up is you can come join me at the front and we'll pray, or you can come see a leader on the side, but the actual words of what you're being invited into need to be deeply rooted in what God is stirring and saying in this living and active word that we're proclaiming. And I think for so many of us, like we, you know how to do it.
Speaker 2:Like ministry is not complicated. Ministry is hard and I think being able to parse the two is really important, because ministry is loving people and learning to help, shoulder alongside them, love and support them. That's hard work, but because it's often their complications that make it hard, simplifying what it is really matters. And I think sometimes, when we've been doing something for a while, we like to imagine how complicated it is, because that helps to elevate how good we are at it, because we've, like, solved a complicated thing. But I think the good news that we need to keep ringing is how much it really does humble and simplify us and the spirit of trying to always make it so sophisticated.
Speaker 1:Have you?
Speaker 1:I mean, you talked about walking with the Lord and you're right like that what he does in us and even the way that, like we would teach and share, and those kinds of things I've often seen, like when that's flipped right, where the spiritual zeal almost overtakes the proficiency of the talent or ability. And I see this a lot in like 20, 21 year old youth ministers that are like they're eating it up and really walking with the Lord and then they'll get in to teach on a Wednesday night and basically it's just seminary class. You know what I'm?
Speaker 2:talking about it does work both ways, you're right. Yeah, yeah yeah, here's everything that I'm learning right now.
Speaker 1:Okay, sorry.
Speaker 2:Pause there. What you're learning shouldn't always be the basis for what you're teaching the way, the excitement. But the heart, yeah, but the excitement you feel about like I didn't even know that the coin. Agree, cad, that like that enthusiasm, bring that to an eighth grade mind and so yeah, but you're right, you know, this is not the like. I'm excited about what I'm learning, no, no, no. Be excited about the excitement and then figure out what the eighth grader needs, that would also give that same kind of excitement. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:And you talk about the helpfulness of that to fighting it, burnout and things like that man Like. And if you're listening and you feel like you are walking through just a dry season, a hard season spiritually for yourself, one, my prayers are with you and to even know, I do think that that's not always a sign of like not doing what we're doing.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:Like what you're supposed to be doing, like, I think, one of the. There's a book on prayer that I read many years ago and the author was talking about how God utilizes and uses the silence to also be, a voice.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And I think sometimes, when we realize that in the stillness and the silence it is the invitation to lean in, that that's a really great place to be as well.
Speaker 2:One of my favorite things for my liturgical friends is the idea of both lectionary and kind of planning out our scripture but also the liturgical calendar, which is a wheel and not a flip book and most of it. So there's seasons of lint, seasons of Advent, there's some other high holy days and thoughts or whatever, but most of it is the green ordinary time, because most of our time is ordinary, and there's something that's really like kind of like small in that that if your heart is feeling strangely calloused or tired or worn, like rest in the ordinary time, like you can't crush it every Wednesday or Sunday. That wasn't the call anyway, and so I think being able to know that like you aren't less cause you didn't outdo yourself last week, Golly dude.
Speaker 1:Well, and even that like idea cause I know this for so many youth ministers the like feeling of constant growth is the way that we will naturally evaluate.
Speaker 2:Can I tell you, the feeling that we should always be growing isn't growth but greed.
Speaker 1:Who did? Is that you? Do you come up with?
Speaker 2:it. The quest for constant growth isn't growth, but greed.
Speaker 1:Oh, dude, well to know that it's not sustainable. Yeah, that's not it's greed, but you can't grow always.
Speaker 2:Yeah Well, the only thing that grows always weeds. I mean again, this is like if you don't have even a small square of a garden in your backyard, you need it, because so much of the work is actually like tilling and clearing to make room for a hopeful little bit of growth that comes in seasons, and the things that grow year round are not the things you wanted anyway. Like, even grass takes a rest.
Speaker 1:Well, and the hard part is I mean cause I've been a part of churches that we've had explosive growth and then, even when growth slows down, it's like what do we need to do to fix that?
Speaker 2:Right, right, right, but you're still one of the largest churches in town, if not the area, but still it wasn't enough, yeah.
Speaker 1:Well, and it goes back like that imposter syndrome and like it's wild. Many years ago I was sitting in a men's group. I was like right out of college, right, this was in our church, but it was one of those things that I just went to. Yeah, I wasn't leading like, I was just a participant in and it's just good for your soul, For my soul.
Speaker 2:Also, by the way, if you don't have a group that you're in, that you're not leading. So good for your soul.
Speaker 1:I remember sitting there and there was a guy in our church that was the vice president of a very large company, like publicly traded, and he was talking to just the other guys there, right, and there's dude, a wide variety of men in this room, right, like there's that guy and there's the dude that's worked with his hands all his life and just a big variety, and they're talking like the conversation is about finances, and I'm sitting there, you know, like 22 years old, about to get married.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:And I-.
Speaker 2:Disposable income.
Speaker 1:Yeah, dude, look Like who has that. Where are you?
Speaker 2:pale brands to live on.
Speaker 1:Right, right, and I remember him sharing that, even though he wants no more. He was like the money that I now make today he was like that I dreamed of is the same money I now struggle with. And this realization for him in his life of like I've worked my whole life to accomplish this, thinking that it was going to get me something, and yet he's sitting around the table with all of us week in and week out, looking for God to do something in his own heart. And I think that, for even in the world of ministry, in this idea of imposter, I think some are trying to like, grow and become and man. If I could just be a youth minister at that church or get the opportunity to speak on that stage.
Speaker 2:Right and it all turned around it all changed.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it all changed, dude, and I think it's good to realize. I mean, we've got the chance to sit and talk with youth ministers of very large places. They're all the same. It's all the same struggles.
Speaker 2:It is all the same struggles.
Speaker 1:Like the same desire for more kids when you have eight is the exact same when you have 800. Yeah, and even that feeling of like, what do I need to be doing? Am I doing enough, and maybe it's Maybe it's me.
Speaker 2:Parents still complain. No matter what's wrong, right.
Speaker 1:And I think the realization that, like I think, it can become so much about the proficiency and hear me, we should always be growing, yeah Of personal. My question always, and even for my own heart, is why am I wanting to become better at this? Why am I wanting to become a better stage communicator? Why am I wanting to become better at leading? Is it so I can reach something? Yeah, or hopefully, as I examine and repent and come back. Is it to utilize the giftings that God's given me now, to worship, to be fulfilled in that and to realize that, like it's for his glory and his good?
Speaker 2:It's good. So I actually have one more question that I ask kids, depending on if there's like enough connection, that is usually the question that I ask like a junior and senior Cause. One of the things that I always share is that you know, my wife, karen, is a high school English teacher, been teaching junior, so we've talked with older high school kids for years Like literally like I'd go visit her in classroom and like all of my best examples of like students today that are like grassroots and not just like cultural come from her. And so one of the questions like, especially when I go visit her, I go ask is like you know some version of who are you trusting your future to? Oh, and I think for a kid, who's thinking about school, votek job who do you trust your future to? But I think for you you've passed your friend, it's the same who do you trust your future to?
Speaker 1:A snap, there's no other, there's not more. That's actually it S T Level T azz U.
